ZSU-23/4 in MOUT footage

[John Kettler]

While there's footage of this formidable weapon in Syria blazing away with wild abandon, here is a far more tactical and measured use, together with effective use of terrain, too. The video shows conclusively that there can't be enough dust, dirt and devastation for CMx2 battles in heavily fought over cities in desert regions. These AFVs look worn, dinged up, damaged and more, with some sporting slogans, too. The ZSU goes into action at ~3:10. The GUN DISH radar is still installed, but there's no guarantee the pricey guts remain inside the ZSU.
 

Regards,

John Kettler

[John Kettler]

Here, we have a ZSU using a purpose built tank ramp and defiladed firing position. The radar proper has been removed, but the the metalwork remains. It's likely the radar's guts have been removed from the hull as well.
 

As you can see here, though, that's no guarantee of survival.
 

Believe Daily Motion is having technical issues, but earlier, I saw a ZSU-23/4 being used as a kind of field artillery against anti-Assad rebels. The ZSU is employing deliberate fire, and at such a range the shells are arriving on FA type trajectories. Terminal effects are considerable, even against dug-in infantry.

Regards,

John Kettler

Edited September 25, 2021 by John Kettler

[John Kettler]

By deliberate fire I mean firing as few as four rounds at a time, watching where they hit, then repeating as needed. Don't know how that's done with such a high ROF multi-barrel weapon, but it would be hard to categorize this remarkable technique as burst fire, more like salvo!

Regards,

John Kettler

[ZPB II]

I remember seeing a video where a Shilka in Syria was firing perpendicular at targets behind a highway, pausing whenever a truck, bus or other civilian car is about to cross the line of fire and then resuming firing. The traffic didn't even seem to slow down as they approach the stream of tracers.

The human condition and so on.

[John Kettler]

12 minutes ago, ZPB II said:

I remember seeing a video where a Shilka in Syria was firing perpendicular at targets behind a highway, pausing whenever a truck, bus or other civilian car is about to cross the line of fire and then resuming firing. The traffic didn't even seem to slow down as they approach the stream of tracers.

The human condition and so on.

That's pretty amazing, but period of German civilians on the street while the Battle of Berlin rages about them far surpasses that.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Sgt.Squarehead]

56 minutes ago, ZPB II said:

I remember seeing a video where a Shilka in Syria was firing perpendicular at targets behind a highway, pausing whenever a truck, bus or other civilian car is about to cross the line of fire and then resuming firing. The traffic didn't even seem to slow down as they approach the stream of tracers.

Here you go:

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/PinkEsteemedGoa-mobile.mp4

Edited September 25, 2021 by Sgt.Squarehead

[John Kettler]

36 minutes ago, ZPB II said:

I remember seeing a video where a Shilka in Syria was firing perpendicular at targets behind a highway, pausing whenever a truck, bus or other civilian car is about to cross the line of fire and then resuming firing. The traffic didn't even seem to slow down as they approach the stream of tracers.

The human condition and so on.

That's pretty amazing, but period of German civilians on the street while the Battle of Berlin rages about them far surpasses that.

That said, this is next league in other ways, starting with being in color. If the detonations are that powerful at considerable range, can you imagine what it's like being under fire?! Am not at all convinced this is a ZSU-23/4 firing.
 

Here's why. If you closely compare the muzzle assemblies in the video with this pic, to me they're identical, and this pic is crystal clear and large format color. Expandable, too.

Regards,

John Kettler

Edited September 25, 2021 by John Kettler

[Erwin]

6 hours ago, John Kettler said:

there can't be enough dust, dirt and devastation for CMx2 battles in heavily fought over cities in desert regions.

That's probably true for all battles even in WW2.  I like the mods that have heavily banged up and dirtied vehicles and uniforms.

[ZPB II]

I thought so too at first since the rate of fire is very low but then again the impacts seemed big for 14.5×114 MDZ.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

You are absolutely right JK that is indeed A a ZPU-4.....I should have realised immediately as I'm modelling a BTR-152D in 1/35 (unusually for me) and I just bought a set of turned brass gun barrels for it. 

Here's a decent picture of the much more complex (liquid-cooled) barrels of the ZSU-23-4:

Edited September 25, 2021 by Sgt.Squarehead

[John Kettler]

ZPB II,

After reading this, from the excellent Tankograd BTR-80 article, I 've decided that the projectile which best fits the observables is indeed the MDZ, which is rated as having essentially the same explosive hitting power as the 20 mm ShVAK aircraft cannon fitted to the T-60 light tank and a great many Soviet fighter planes.

https://thesovietarmourblog.blogspot.com/2014/11/btr-80.html

The MDZ is a high explosive incendiary (HE-I) bullet designed primarily for anti-aircraft work, but it is also suitable for soft skinned vehicles vehicles such as trucks, jeeps, and cars. The bullet has a bimetallic jacket containing an explosive filler. A detonator cap is installed at the nose of the bullet. It is extremely lightweight and occupies much less space compared to a mechanical fuze.

 

The filler of the MDZ bullet consists of ~5 grams of phlegmatized PETN. The phlegmatizer content is unknown, but the explosiveness of PETN (as determined by a Trauzl test) is 523 ml, while the A-IX-2 explosive-incendiary compound has an explosiveness of 530 ml, the same as pure hexogen. The explosiveness of the phlegmatized PETN charge is likely to be between A-IX-1 and A-IX-2. In terms of explosive payload, the MDZ bullet is similar to the 20x99mm OZ (HE-I) shell for the the ShVAK aircraft cannon, which contained 5.6 grams of A-IX-2. 

 

The MDZ bullet is specified to blast a hole with a diameter of 20-30cm into a 1mm duralumin sheet at a distance of 1,500 meters. This is superior to a 20mm OZ round for the ShVAK, which is only capable of creating a 150x160mm breach in a 0.9-1.5mm duralumin sheet simulating the skin of aircraft.

 

Overall, the useful payload of the MDZ bullet is similar to the 20mm ShVAK OZ shell, despite the considerable difference in total projectile weight of 31 grams. The forged steel body of the OZ shell may be heavier and more effective at fragmenting compared to the jacket of the MDZ bullet, but at least in terms of weight, the difference is not as large as the total projectile weight suggests due to the fact that the OZ shell has a large mechanical fuze whereas the MDZ bullet does not.

Regards,

John Kettler

[John Kettler]

33 minutes ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

You are absolutely right JK that is indeed A a ZPU-4.....I should have realised immediately as I'm modelling a BTR-152D in 1/35 (unusually for me) and I just bought a set of turned brass gun barrels for it. 

Ah, a model builder. Last built a proper kit (Tamiya SU-100--with motor) around 1972 and was an active member of the local IPMS chapter. These days, full-up models, especially with aftermarket etched brass, metal gun barrels and such are insanely expensive, much more so, I think, than my wargaming miniatures if we compare 1 tank 1/35 scale model against 1 28 mm/1/56 scale infantry platoon. For $40, I can buy 30 figures, but I've seen $90 tank kits, and am pretty sure that's not the upper limit. The more modest big name outfit tank models are $60, and even the old Monogram Panzer IV/H, made from the early 1970 molds, no less, runs $40.

Thanks for confirming my weapon ID. Contrast ratio and res in the video were so low (my kingdom for a GoPro™) I thought I was seeing coolant hoses, but the pic I found shows conclusively I was wrong.

Before I go, here's a modeling secret am sure no one here knows. If you vapor deposit aluminum on a 1/35 scale AFV model and use the right kind of laser to reflect off of it, you'll see the same glint points that a MMW seeker operating at 94 GHz will. This is how you can make templates to show smart weapons what they're lookin g at so they go after tanks and not trucks.

Regards,

John Kettler

Edited September 26, 2021 by John Kettler

[Sgt.Squarehead]

41 minutes ago, John Kettler said:

Before I go, here's a modeling secret am sure no one here knows. If you vapor deposit aluminum on a 1/35 scale AFV model and use the right kind of laser to reflect off of it, you'll see the same glint points that a MMW seeker operating at 94 GHz will. This is how you can make templates to show smart weapons what they're lookin g at so they go after tanks and not trucks.

I wonder where you picked that up? 

You are not wrong about the cost of kits these days, I typically model in 1/72 and I can easily do over $100 US on a single 1/72 tank if I go overboard with the aftermarket extras or kit-bashing (I once accurised the classic Airfix 1/76 Sherman, IIRC I used seven different kits and half a dozen aftermarket sets).

[John Kettler]

On 9/25/2021 at 7:59 PM, Sgt.Squarehead said:

I wonder where you picked that up? 

You are not wrong about the cost of kits these days, I typically model in 1/72 and I can easily do over $100 US on a single 1/72 tank if I go overboard with the aftermarket extras or kit-bashing (I once accurised the classic Airfix 1/76 Sherman, IIRC I used seven different kits and half a dozen aftermarket sets).

Sgt.Squarehead,

US Army FSTC (Foreign Science and Technology Center's branch chief for Target Signature and Image Metrology, Tom D'Isepo, briefed us on this when I was on the WASP brilliant swarm missile program. Don't know whether FSTC invented the technique I described or got the idea elsewhere and ran with it. Thought it was truly ingenious and a huge money saver, for the old school method involved building at least a breadboard seeker, placing it in a tower, then looking at real targets at expected approach angles, target geomentry and engagement ranges based on seeker acquisition range. We had a specially built rooftop installation on one of the buildings where I worked, and from there they tested lots of different seeker against the bailed National Guard tank I spoke of. And that sort of thing was but a step toward field tests with the seeker up in a helicopter and operating against something resembling a real target array in a Western Europe simulating environment. The FSTC method allowed a great deal of preliminary work on the missile guidance system's computer to be done to "train" it to find the right targets and attack only those.

A HUNDRED bucks plus to do a 1/72 scale tank model? Seems pretty extreme to me. There's a guy named Gustav Haug who does tons of dazzling work in 1/72 scale, and I invite you to feast your eyes on his glorious minis at the link.

https://www.facebook.com/GustavHaugOMM

Regards,

John Kettler

Edited October 16, 2021 by John Kettler

[Sgt.Squarehead]

I don't do FB JK.