Some Questions About LOS and Targeting

[CanuckGamer]

To determine which of my units can spot an enemy one, I click on the enemy unit and it then highlights which of my units can spot it.  Sometimes though when I click on my unit I can't target the enemy unit.  There are obviously other factors in play but not sure what those are.  I thought that if you could spot you should be able to fire at the spotted unit but not so.

Secondly I would like to hear opinions and comments on whether there is any difference in setting a target arc as opposed to merely facing your unit in that direction.  In other words, do you think my unit/AFV would get off a shot quicker with the target arc or facing?  I am assuming that my tank would not fire if the enemy tank moved out of the target arc even though my tank still had a LOS on that enemy tank.

Thanks.

[user1000]

Its in the huge PDF manual, found in your installation folder.

however I could not find where the manual mentions anything about target armor arc command, dunno if it has been updated to reflect this after the recent ai patches.

edit: It is not in the normandy manual but it was in the blitzkrieg manual

(although normandy now supports this now)

"An alternative to Target Arc is Target Armor Arc. It functions the same as Target Arc, except
that a unit with this command will only engage enemy armored vehicles within its arc, and
will leave soft targets like infantry alone. This is useful if you do not want your anti-tank
weapons to reveal themselves too soon against enemy scouts."
 

target arc

"Any visible enemy units that are located inside this area, or that move into this
area, will be fired upon. Any enemy units outside of this target arc will be
ignored (until self-preservation takes over and the Tactical AI decides to
override player orders; e.g. if an enemy unit suddenly pops up at extremely
short range)."

"is also useful to keep a unit’s “attention” focused on a specific
part of the game map while it moves. If, for example, you want to keep a
close eye on a bunch of buildings (where you suspect enemy activity) while
driving down a road, you could assign a target arc to several units covering
this area. The target arc increases the chances that units will recognize and
engage an enemy threat within the target area quickly"

 

setting a target arc with vehicles make it so the acquisition time is less, so the tank, rifle or mg doesn't have to swing its barrel around to shoot, the barrel is already pointed at the center of the target arc you set. So yes it makes it so it can shoot faster.

 

1 hour ago, CanuckGamer said:

  I am assuming that my tank would not fire if the enemy tank moved out of the target arc even though my tank still had a LOS on that enemy tank.

Thanks.

That is where self-preservation takes over and the Tactical AI decides to
override player orders takes place.

I never use any of the target arcs but manage out just fine staying hull down or hidden with opening up and closing the hatch in a quick pattern to see targets. I know there are great benefits to it that I am missing, but the AI and skill of the soldier do a pretty good job now.

Edited January 15, 2020 by user1000

[A Canadian Cat]

1 hour ago, CanuckGamer said:

To determine which of my units can spot an enemy one, I click on the enemy unit and it then highlights which of my units can spot it.  Sometimes though when I click on my unit I can't target the enemy unit.  There are obviously other factors in play but not sure what those are.  I thought that if you could spot you should be able to fire at the spotted unit but not so.

Usually the difference is that the LOF of the weapon system is not the same as the spotter. For example the opened up tank commander can see over an obstacle and the gun cannot. There are a few times where there doesn't seem to be a clear explanation. Normally those are pretty marginal LOS situations in the first place so people just caulk it up to a limitation. Frequently you can shift the position of a tank or change the facing of an infantry team and someone will get LOF.

 

1 hour ago, CanuckGamer said:

Secondly I would like to hear opinions and comments on whether there is any difference in setting a target arc as opposed to merely facing your unit in that direction.  In other words, do you think my unit/AFV would get off a shot quicker with the target arc or facing? 

Yes, only use target arcs if you want to prevent your unit from firing. Seriously if you want them to shoot the enemy don't use a target arc.

1 hour ago, CanuckGamer said:

I am assuming that my tank would not fire if the enemy tank moved out of the target arc even though my tank still had a LOS on that enemy tank.

And that is exactly why.

Their reaction time and some of their spotting ability depends on how the unit is oriented but target arcs do more than that - they also stop them from firing on things outside the arc. They do not improve spotting inside the arc. If you use the face command or have the final way point placed to orient your unit the same way as the target arc would have done the only differences is with the target arch they will not shoot at targets outside of that.

Do not use the target arc if you want your unit to fire.

The only exception to this is if you want to have a tank turret facing a different direction from the way the tank is moving. Even then I would only use that during movement and I would use 180 arcs that cover the extent of the map. I would double check that the arc was removed before the final way point.

[Erwin]

7 hours ago, user1000 said:

I never use any of the target arcs but manage out just fine staying hull down or hidden with opening up and closing the hatch in a quick pattern to see targets. I know there are great benefits to it that I am missing, but the AI and skill of the soldier do a pretty good job now.

Are you playing RT or WEGO?

7 hours ago, IanL said:

The only exception to this is if you want to have a tank turret facing a different direction from the way the tank is moving. Even then I would only use that during movement and I would use 180 arcs that cover the extent of the map.

I find this a very common requirement and it definitely speeds up making an accurate shot when the turret doesn't have to rotate.   The only problem is if you are moving a company or more and need to keep changing arcs at every waypoint, that becomes a major PITA.  CM1 featured 1-click 180 degree arcs that was much easier and faster to implement for larger formations of turreted vehicles.

[domfluff]

I mostly use target arcs for three things:

The main one is to get them to hold fire, which I use constantly, especially with HQ units and scouts.

Second one is the target armour arc for maximising AT weapons, particularly in ambush situation.

The other use-case is when I want to save some reaction time with a tank turret.

Tank turrets will turn to face the centre of an arc, so if you're in a situation (e.g., in a city) where you are going to come around a corner, you can pre-turn your turret towards where you're going to want it, saving some seconds of traverse time.

My technique for doing that is to look at it from above, and judge (from the final position, when the tank will reveal itself) what the clock direction is to the suspected target position. E.g., "When this tank clears this corner, the enemy building will be at 2 o'clock".

Then, I set the arc from the same camera position, where the tank currently is. Typically I'd make an arc that has some margins - if the target is at 2 o'clock, I'd perhaps set the arc from 12 to 4 o'clock. Anything where the suspected position is in the centre. Arc radius should be longer than you think you need. Arcs are relative to the tank, not the map, but do not pay attention to the AFV's facing.

The end result is that the AFV will turn it's turret to face the building, and will advance around the corner pre-aligned.

Ideally, I'd also set a target command at the exposed point, which will take advantage of the pre-alignment and open up straight away.

(Really-ideally, this isn't a good spot for a tank to be in, so I'd rather not, but sometimes it's important.)

 

Edited January 16, 2020 by domfluff

[A Canadian Cat]

9 hours ago, domfluff said:

Second one is the target armour arc for maximising AT weapons, particularly in ambush situation.

Oh that's a really important thing I forgot. I do this too. For tank and other guns I'll set a circular armour arc that covers the entire map. What I said before stands - arcs are for preventing units from firing. In this case you want them to not fire on infantry but you do not want them to ignore any enemy they spot so make sure the entire map is covered. For WW2 infantry AT weapons this is not necessary since none of them would fire at 300m anyway. So, for those I usually set the circle to a distance that is a little longer than I would be comfortable with them firing. That way they are free to act as they saw fit just not shoot at some random scout that comes around the corner.

 

Quote

The other use-case is when I want to save some reaction time with a tank turret.

Oh that is a good idea - nice. I'll have to add that to my list of exceptions. But I would do things slightly differently:

9 hours ago, domfluff said:

Then, I set the arc from the same camera position, where the tank currently is. Typically I'd make an arc that has some margins - if the target is at 2 o'clock, I'd perhaps set the arc from 12 to 4 o'clock. Anything where the suspected position is in the centre. Arc radius should be longer than you think you need.

if the target is at 2 o'clock I'd set the arc as close to 11 to 5 o'clock as practical and extend over the entire rest of the map. The last thing you want is a surprise as you get close to the corner and have your tank just ignore it.

Edited January 16, 2020 by IanL
clarifiation

[Erwin]

1 hour ago, IanL said:

For tank and other guns I'll set a circular arch that covered the entire map.

You mean an "Armor" arc so the tank ignores infantry?  Otherwise, what is the advantage of "a 360 arc that covers the entire map"?

1 hour ago, IanL said:

if the target is at 2 o'clock I'd set the arc as close to 11 to 5 o'clock as practical and extend over the entire rest of the map. The last thing you want is a surprise as you get close to the corner and have your tank just ignore it.

That's why in most cases you want a 180 degree arc oriented towards a likely enemy.   That's why it would be nice to have the CM1 one click 180 degree arc back as that was very quick to do.

[A Canadian Cat]

2 hours ago, Erwin said:

You mean an "Armor" arc so the tank ignores infantry?  Otherwise, what is the advantage of "a 360 arc that covers the entire map"?

Oops yes, I meant an armour cover arc so the Tank, Gun or AT unit will not fire on infantry. I fixed my original post to BTW to avoid confusion.

[BornGinger]

I often us an arch when I have units in hiding and want them to get out from hiding only when enemy troops come inside the arch.