JulianJ Posted August 19, 2019 Share Posted August 19, 2019 I have been critical of BF a few times in the past but my most recent battle - still continuing - gave me a vivid insight into fighting with non-NATO forces, i.e. The Syrian Army. Mission Blunderable - We are having a big bite of the sh*t sandwich and the Uncons/Terrorists are kicking our butt. to Battlefront: Well done! Explains a lot of things - the game is robust enough to replicate what I have seen in Youtube videos etc, and explains a lot of the behaviour of the ill-equipped and not well motivated Syrian army. Basically, I've been fighting in CMBS and SF2 with well equipped, ammo'd up and professional soldiers. I have developed a method, which involves plenty of support fire. Even if my men get in trouble, they should be able to hang on long enough for me to plaster the enemy with direct fire, mortars, arty or airstrikes. When I have watched vids etc of Syrian (or Afghan, etc) soldiers, with their mismatched uniforms - or T shirts and jeans, lack of protection - even old fashioned steel helmets, and desultory support fires: I wondered why they did this. Soldiers bimbling along in group, with no-one watching the rear would get an almighty rollicking from the nearest NCO in the British Army. Find, Fix and Destroy is the motto of the British infantry. My Syrian version is Find, Freak and Flee. I am doing a QB SYrians v. Uncons. I took nearly everything as "Typical" which was a horrible mistake as nearly everyone is Green or Conscript...they cannot hit anything! Various old junky tanks. My tanks have been blown away by ATGMs. Which they should have spotted. I set up my mortars on overwatch for direct fire (I have taken to heart @DougPhresh's professional advice that a little fire support immediately is better than heavier stuff much later or may not arrive) but we have so little ammo that I can only muster a desultory fire by using Ctrl+J. I have a massive 107mm rocket stonk coming down on where I think the enemy is. May arrive the week after next. I am going to have to rethink my tactics with these troops. The one clever move - I sent a recon vehicle across a river to a huge mesa on the right of the battlefield, with a sniper team and an observer team (who got unfortunately whacked on the way). The snipers are in position to look for the enemy. But they don't have a radio! I never thought to check. I am going to have to adopt different approaches if I am to succeed. Shows how much I have been relying on the quality of troops and equipment. It's pleasing, in a masochistic sort of way. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boche Posted August 19, 2019 Share Posted August 19, 2019 Might want to check out some Syrian civil war scenarios being worked on, they are really interesting to play. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liveload Posted August 19, 2019 Share Posted August 19, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, JulianJ said: I have been critical of BF a few times in the past but my most recent battle - still continuing - gave me a vivid insight into fighting with non-NATO forces, i.e. The Syrian Army. Mission Blunderable - We are having a big bite of the sh*t sandwich and the Uncons/Terrorists are kicking our butt. to Battlefront: Well done! Explains a lot of things - the game is robust enough to replicate what I have seen in Youtube videos etc, and explains a lot of the behaviour of the ill-equipped and not well motivated Syrian army. Basically, I've been fighting in CMBS and SF2 with well equipped, ammo'd up and professional soldiers. I have developed a method, which involves plenty of support fire. Even if my men get in trouble, they should be able to hang on long enough for me to plaster the enemy with direct fire, mortars, arty or airstrikes. When I have watched vids etc of Syrian (or Afghan, etc) soldiers, with their mismatched uniforms - or T shirts and jeans, lack of protection - even old fashioned steel helmets, and desultory support fires: I wondered why they did this. Soldiers bimbling along in group, with no-one watching the rear would get an almighty rollicking from the nearest NCO in the British Army. Find, Fix and Destroy is the motto of the British infantry. My Syrian version is Find, Freak and Flee. I am doing a QB SYrians v. Uncons. I took nearly everything as "Typical" which was a horrible mistake as nearly everyone is Green or Conscript...they cannot hit anything! Various old junky tanks. My tanks have been blown away by ATGMs. Which they should have spotted. I set up my mortars on overwatch for direct fire (I have taken to heart @DougPhresh's professional advice that a little fire support immediately is better than heavier stuff much later or may not arrive) but we have so little ammo that I can only muster a desultory fire by using Ctrl+J. I have a massive 107mm rocket stonk coming down on where I think the enemy is. May arrive the week after next. I am going to have to rethink my tactics with these troops. The one clever move - I sent a recon vehicle across a river to a huge mesa on the right of the battlefield, with a sniper team and an observer team (who got unfortunately whacked on the way). The snipers are in position to look for the enemy. But they don't have a radio! I never thought to check. I am going to have to adopt different approaches if I am to succeed. Shows how much I have been relying on the quality of troops and equipment. It's pleasing, in a masochistic sort of way. If you are modeling anything but an invasion of Syria in 2008, don't pick anything under Veteran for the SAA. Most of their surviving air and armor units can be considered crack units at this point. They don't break like the regulars and below under fire. As to why they fight...if another country(s) invaded your neighborhood tonight, what would you do? Who would you be fighting for? From their perspective, if you want to hear a Syrian's point of view check out the interview with Grand Mufti Hassoun. He is speaking very deliberately in easy to understand and translate Arabic, so the subtitles are accurate. He'll get excited from time to time and his Syrian dialect will show through for a moment, but then he composes himself and continues. Point is, if you want to see from their perspective, his is one that is common enough to be taken as a hard indicator of the societal zeitgeist. Edited August 19, 2019 by Liveload 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DerKommissar Posted August 19, 2019 Share Posted August 19, 2019 Yeah, I've been having a great experience with 4.02, so far. I went into playing the SAA with Warsaw Pact combined arms tactics, after finishing the CM:BS UKR campaign. The layered cake of artillery, tanks, ifvs/apcs and infantry, all at once, seems to be the way to go. You can't expect a NATO level of individual competence, so using NATO tactics is disastrous. In a way, this parallels a real world problem for the SAA -- few officers are trained on the intended tactics. Whenever I play a Soviet-style army, I usually spend 75% of my time arranging my perfect 5 minute battle. So, all artillery, vehicles and infantry is standing-by to for a simultaneous avalanche on the enemy's line. Best way to use low-experience troops that can't be expected stay frosty after first blood. Recon is important, but you lack Western Optics. So, you have to probe the line with scouts and scout cars, before the 5 minute battle. I use these probes a as a litmus test -- if a BRDM-2 is burning, you know not to go there. Areas of the enemy line that don't immediately destroy your scouts, can be considered schwerpunkts. These are the prime targets for your breakthrough. I believe the modern-day SAA is actually quite good at these tactics, after years of bloody field training. You can take a look at how they operate in Idlib. Spend months on probing attacks, but spend a couple of days breaking through pincers. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George MC Posted August 20, 2019 Share Posted August 20, 2019 Shameless plug... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Canadian Cat Posted August 20, 2019 Share Posted August 20, 2019 19 hours ago, JulianJ said: My Syrian version is Find, Freak and Flee. LOL - that is funny (in a way to close to home kinda way) - I have run out of likes for the day so this will have to do 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulianJ Posted August 20, 2019 Author Share Posted August 20, 2019 @Liveload I fully appreciate that the Syrians are defending their country, and Brit flippancy doesn't always travel. As I said, I just took "Typical" for everything and upgraded a couple of sniper teams, 1 Observer team, and the sole 120 mm mortar (to Veteran - they seem to be significantly more accurate than the 82mms). So everyone is green or conscript. Howver, while some of the Syrian army is highly effective: the Tiger Forces and the 4th Division, I stand by my observations about a good deal of the Syrian Army. Not out of prejudice - it is a conscript army and very different to highly professional NATO forces. Look at the photos - most of them have no body armour, not even a steel helmet. I wouldn't go into battle like that, let alone without kevlar+ceramic plates, eye protection (I met a Brit ex-Squaddie a couple of months ago who caught an IED in Afghanistan - he showed me a pic: his face was a mess but the protective eyewear saved his sight, you could see where he was wearing it cos it was fine and the rest was all bloody - it ws like a white eyemask amid red). The Syrian army has taken horrendous casualties and probably "All the best men are dead" type of thing. How motivated would anyone here be to fight without decent protection? So I think BF are very realistic in simulating what we would call "poor quality troops" and they would call "staying alive to come home" people. I have also read several accounts of westerners fighting with the Kurdish forces in Syria, and while the Kurds are clearly very heavily motivated they still have discipline problems, unprofessionalism/individualism and of course a lack of every sort of support and logistics which NATO (and I assume the Russians) take for granted. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulianJ Posted August 22, 2019 Author Share Posted August 22, 2019 Anyway, I haven't been around much recently (work - it really gets in the way) and I am now off to a board gaming weekend in a castle! I hope that makes some of you jealous. I don't get to do much f2f gaming so am really looking forward to it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DerKommissar Posted August 23, 2019 Share Posted August 23, 2019 On 8/20/2019 at 4:03 PM, JulianJ said: Howver, while some of the Syrian army is highly effective: the Tiger Forces and the 4th Division, I stand by my observations about a good deal of the Syrian Army. Not out of prejudice - it is a conscript army and very different to highly professional NATO forces. Look at the photos - most of them have no body armour, not even a steel helmet. I wouldn't go into battle like that, let alone without kevlar+ceramic plates, eye protection (I met a Brit ex-Squaddie a couple of months ago who caught an IED in Afghanistan - he showed me a pic: his face was a mess but the protective eyewear saved his sight, you could see where he was wearing it cos it was fine and the rest was all bloody - it ws like a white eyemask amid red). The Syrian army has taken horrendous casualties and probably "All the best men are dead" type of thing. This came to mind when I saw this picture from Idlib: Guy really overdressed for the party. Now look at the fool carrying his helmet about, with zoolander glasses on his head. I can't really comment if the attire that the SAA wears is due to supply issues, or simple practicality. You see a lot of guys from 'nam not wearing flack jackets or BDUs -- doesn't mean they couldn't have. But I will say that, most of these guys are equipped with at least one radio, and often UAV terminals. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulianJ Posted August 23, 2019 Author Share Posted August 23, 2019 (edited) I'm just about to leave for my break, so posting hurriedly. I think that guy on the right is a Russian advisor. I've seen him in another vid speaking Russian. I've seen lots of recent pix from Idlib Province with poorly equipped SAA. Haven't had time to find them so look at these recent pix of the liberation of Khan Shaykum: https://www.syrianews.cc/saa-liberates-khan-sheikhoun-nato-terrorists-defeated/ Edited August 23, 2019 by JulianJ mistake 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boche Posted August 23, 2019 Share Posted August 23, 2019 (edited) That guy is a russian reporter, hes been following the tigers for a while now. Oleg something is his name edit: Oleg Blokhin is the name, some parts say he is a reporter, others a mercenary. Edited August 23, 2019 by Boche 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boche Posted August 23, 2019 Share Posted August 23, 2019 In the end you go to battle with what you have...we in the west "mostly" have the luxury of having a lot of equipment to go about. Its something thats suprised me for a couple of years now, all the video of the tiger forces and the 4th armoured with preety much no standard equipment. Then again thats not everything, You dont have to just look the part, you have to play the part and im sure after all these years these guys know what they are doing. You can tell when you watch them. A plate carrier is nice but combat experience is better. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazmaps Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 On 8/24/2019 at 3:53 AM, Boche said: A plate carrier is nice but combat experience is better. True, but the former is also an awesome aid in achieving the later..... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boche Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 (edited) "delete" Edited September 3, 2019 by Boche 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boche Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 1 hour ago, Gazmaps said: True, but the former is also an awesome aid in achieving the later..... Well it aids in having more chance of surviving the combat experience yes 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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