Firing Ranges Linearity

[Hunter]

BTS, Fionn or other Beta Testers,

In the unit screen at the top left hand corner, the firing values for your units are shown for a few ranges (40m, 80, 200m or something like that).

Because I am used to other games, I tend to interpret that as a set of break points where I really should hold my ambush to less than, say 80m, to get full effect.

Thinking about it, I imagine BTS has probably got it smoothed a lot better than that, but only shows those ranges for simplicity.

True?

[Fionn]

VERY correct..

The firepower is calculated per metre. IOW if I target a unit 65 metres away I get a different firepower rating than if I target a unit 64 metres away.

The reason that 40m, 100 m and 200m (IIRC... I don't have much use for 100m or 200m firepower ratings since I always try to fight at sub-40m ranges if possible ) are shown is that they are relatively useful standards to utilise.

At above 200 metres it is probable that only rifles and MGs will have any significant power.

At 100 metres all of the squad's weaponry can fire with great effectiveness.

At 40metres and less grenades and SMGs take over. So, as you can see each range is chosen because different weapons work best at each range and they give tactically useful info.

Anyways, that's my take. The key point is that CM only shows you the firepower at a few ranges BUT it does calculate firepowers for every metre. It all goes down to the fact that the human brain would get befuddled if faced with a list showing the firepower ratings every metre for 200 metres . 3 ratings is enough to internalize and extrapolate general performance parameters from.

[ChrisPick]

BTS,

Any chance of a Firepower/range graph for each squad? It seems unfair that tanks get all the exciting graphs and pictures!

On second thoughts, since we would like the game before 2002, I withdraw that request...

Maybe something that could be produced by others given the data?

Cheers,

Chris

-- Edited for bone headed speling erors

[This message has been edited by ChrisPick (edited 02-22-2000).]

[This message has been edited by ChrisPick (edited 02-22-2000).]

[Snark]

Speaking of ranges. Whats the best range for tanks vs tanks?

ie Stuggs vs hellcats or Tiger vs Hellcats

Would you want to be with in 40m to fight them? or way out there?

I cant tell from the demo stats which has more accuracy at long ranges.

Thanks

S

[Fionn]

Actually Chris,

This is one of the things I want to do as part of the tactical analysis of each squad and unit in CM on CMHQ..

But I need writing help since there are SO many squads to do the work for.

Snark, it all depends on the specific tank and gun.

E.g. The Hellcat has THIN armour so anything that hits it can kill it. The Tiger (sub 500 metres is best in my book with side and rear shots being the best obviously).

[Snark]

Fionn

So your saying the tiger is more effective against a Hellcat if its within 500m.

"anything that hits it can kill it"

Does this mean that a HMG can kill a Hellcat?

anthing else? SMG?

I figgerd that if the Hellcats destroyed the Stuggs and Tiger the game was over for Axis since they had nothing left to stop them.

Thanks

S

[Guest Charles]

Snark

I believe he is saying the opposite--Allied armor will have a hard time killing a Tiger unless it closes to within 500 yards. OTOH, a Tiger has a pretty good chance of killing Allied armor within ranges of approximately 1500 yards (or is that meters)?

The distances in the demo are generally less than 500 yards/meters, so the odds are pretty much equalized. When the game ships, don't expect to kill a Tiger if your armor is at one end of the map and it is at the other.

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Not THE Charles from BTS

[Snark]

Thanks Charles

Ive noticed that the Hellcats, for instance, dont have a problem killing the Tiger all the way across the board/map. Thouhgt maybe I needed to get the Tiger closer, but youve dispelled that idea. I apreciate the input.

Nick

[Peterk]

Hey Snark,

You may want to keep that Tiger as far away from the Cats as possible - in Last Defense for example, one idea that works fairly well is to keep him on top of the hill at as extreme distance as you can manage - you'll see the cat shots (if you're lucky) just bounce off one after the other.

Slightly larger maps in the actual game will make the proper strategy easier to judge - the small demo scenarios pretty much force the Tigers to be more vulnerable than they should be.

p.

[Guest Madmatt]

Snark,

Try and position your Tiger near ther German map edge and wait until the 'Cats show up. The range will be nearly 1000 (dont remember the EXACT range) meters from that location to the top of Hellcat Hill. You will most likely see several 'Shell Broke Up' messages as the Hellcats fire on the Tiger (no guarantees though! ). This occurs as the Hellcats 76mm round, while potent at sub 800 meters, just doesnt have the velocity to ensure kills beyond that range. The Tigers mighty 88, does not suffer that penalty to the same degree and due to the paper thin armor (geez, I hesistate to call it that! ) on the Tank Destroyer, the 88 wil easily ruin the Hellcats day from just about any distance your likely to encounter in the demo.

So the short of it is:

Engage enemy Tigers from CLOSE range! His gun will kill you all the same from far away as it will close up, but yours is more potent close in.

Engage American Armor at a distance. The Tigers 88 is still quite capable of brewing american armor at extreme ranges while their weaponry does not have the same killing power at these ranges.

Put in yet another way (for the cautious player)...Americans: Close With The Enemy

Germans: Engage at Your effective range, not the enemies.

Once you throw in Jumbo Shermans and Pershings and 90mm's etc.. This theory all goes to hell though!

Madmatt...

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If it's in Combat Mission, it's on Combat Mission HQ!

combathq.thegamers.net

[This message has been edited by Madmatt (edited 02-22-2000).]

[Bullethead]

Snark said:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Does this mean that a HMG can kill a Hellcat? anthing else? SMG?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The M18 had 1/2" armor all the way around. It had some slope to it, but 1/2" ain't much armor. Basically, anything above .30-cal should have a pretty good chance of penetrating with AP ammo. German HMGs would be borderline because they were about .30-cal, but could still have some chance at the right range and angle. A bigger threat would be anti-tank rifles. Also, CM seems to over-model the deadliness to light armor of HE near misses, so mortars and light arty seem to be pretty big threats even if they don't hit.

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-Bullethead

jtweller@delphi.com

WW2 AFV Photos: people.delphi.com/jtweller/tanks/tanks.htm

[guachi]

In reply to Chris Pick's request for firepower graphs for squads. I made mine the day I got the demo.

I've got nice charts and graphs for squad firepower and individual weapon firepower. Graphs and charts for the blast firepower of anything that lists it (artillery, mortars, vehicles, bazookas). For instance, the SMG squad's FP is ranked second at 40m but dead last at 100m. Guess where I like to fight with my SMG squads?

There is a chart comparing each weapon to the most powerful one, the MG42 HMG. The MG42 FP is normalized to 1.00 for all ranges and then every other weapon's FP is a ratio of the MG42's. This is one way to test a weapons ability to keep its firepower up at long ranges.

With the squads, I took an average of the seven available and did the same comparison. Once I get enough samples with the full game, I could even make a chart standard deviation from the norm.

I also made a chart showing the percentage a German squad's FP of its inherent MG42 to see just how important it was to a squad.

Fionn, if you need some help with squad and weapons analysis, I'm your guy, I even have an Expert certification in Excel so I can make some really neat charts and graphs.

Jason

[Sten]

Guachi,

have you reported that special interest/ability to Fionn in the "CMHQ needs you" -thread?

I'm sure he'd welcome any help with creating a nice-looking complete database.

Sten

[Guest Offwhite]

Snark said - I figgerd that if the Hellcats destroyed the Stuggs and Tiger the game was over for Axis since they had nothing left to stop them.

Don't fixate on the armor; it's definitely useful but not absolutely necessary. In my first attempt at Last Defense (vs. AI), I lost all three German AFV's to the Hellcats, but still ended up taking the town. Other folks have mentioned using arty smoke to screen your troops from the hill, and I'd add that those Hellcats don't have much in the way of HE ammo either. Once you're in town, the Hellcats will be ill-advised to risk their open-topped selves among the buildings.

Granted, against a human opponent you'll probably have more trouble...

[Simon Fox]

I would expect squad firepower to be a non-linear function as it is a composite of each individual weapon in the squad which may in themselves behave in a non-linear fashion firepower-wise. Even so it should be fairly straightforward to generate a composite graph for a squad once the individual weapon graphs are generated.

Comments Jason?

As I understand it cover currently degrades small arms firepower in a linear fashion which seems pretty reasonable to me but I wonder whether that abstraction works as well for closer engagement ranges. I am a bit uncomfortable with the fashion perpetuated by Fionn and others for closing in to very close range as it doesn't quite gel with my historical reading, frequency wise. I feel that such attacks should be harder to mount in a morale sense. Given the very severe casualties typically suffered by both sides I would like to see a bit more reluctance displayed for such 'suicide charges'. A bit of mutiny wouldn't go astray hehe.

[Snark]

Thanks for the input regarding Tiger vs Hellcats.

I conducted a brief experiment.

Tiger and two Stugs in the start box side by side. 2 mortars and the 105 atty next to them. Fire timed so atty and mortar fire arrived w/ Hellcats along w/ Tiger and Stugg fire.

No troop movement.

held those positione 'till turn 10 when Hellcats arive and replayed it for 10 turns.

Range : 950m + -

results

3 cats dead 1 Tiger and 1 Stugg OK 4

All axis armor dead 1 Cat OK 2

" 2 Cat OK 1

" 3 Cat OK 2

2 Stugs dead,Tiger Imobile w/3 Cats dead 1

Total 10

About a 50/50 chance of survival for either side engaging toe to toe at 950m. (w/atty and mortar suport for Axis).

For what its worth.

[Fionn]

Actually I would hold that a huge amount of infantry training is involved in instilling the necessary obedience in troops to get them to close to close range of the enemy and thus unleash deadly fire on them.

On the attack the whole idea is to get close to the enemy so you can unleash deadly firepower on them.

Trading fire from 200 metres away is just going to slightly attrit your forces. Trading fire from 40 metres away results in victory.

I think people vastly overestimate the range at which combat occured most of the time.. Look at the M16... It simply isn't designed to fire beyond 200 metres. In combat it is rare for it fire at over 100 metres from what I've heard. This gels with the way CM does things IMO.

In any case the reason I get to close range is cause it suits my fighting style.. I've noted one of my beta-testing PBEM opponent really doesn't like that style at all and tries to hang back and engage in a tit for tat firefight.

One other important point is that one MAJOR reason I like to close in is because I generally command German squads with high firepower but low manpower so the BEST way for me to use them is to hit the enemy very hard and finish them before I become attrited and my squad becomes useless.

As the US different tactics are demanded due to the different firepower curve of the unit.

[Cueball]

What's probably going to ruin the Hellcat's day is a simple German 234/1 AC with a 20mm. The 20mm has a high ROF, and should have enough punch to put many holes in the Hellcat's armor

[guachi]

Those of us who have the beta demo only have seven squad types to look at so I can only comment on those.

I've got my FP graphs and charts up in Excel right now. I have to say that, unless the Americans are facing SMG squads, that the American tactics should be exactly opposite of what Fionn is suggesting. I assume that he is suggesting that the Americans should fight at longer ranges and the Germans at shorter ranges.

That the American squads are better at longer ranges is simply untrue (excepting the SMG squad which is obviously inferior at long range)

The two SS squads get getter, comparatively, the longer the range gets. The motorized squad has 21% more FP than a Rifle 44 squad at 40m and 135% at 500m. The advantage is lessened, but still considerable, against the Rifle 45 squad , which has two BARs - 10% at 40m and 74% at 500m. The PanzerGrenadier's numbers are similar but slightly lower because it has two less men in the squad.

The VG squad performs similarly well against the Rifle 44 squad. At 40m it has 15% less FP but steadily improves with range until it has 29% greater FP at 500m. The squad even holds its own against the Rifle 45 squad, having 80% of the 45's FP at the first three ranges (40m, 100m, and 250m) and being almost equal at 500m.

The Hvy SMG squad doesn't fare quite as well. While clearly having more FP than either of the two American squads, the advantage decreases as the range increases to 250m. At the extreme range of 500m the advantage shoots back up as the Hvy SMG squad has far superior long range FP in its two MG42s.

The Germans increasing advantage at longer ranges can`be attributed to one weapon, the MG42. Shorter ranges favor those units with a higher preponderence of automatic weapons. But three of the German squads suffer from having the bolt-action K98, mitigating the availability of MP40s and MP44s.

The Americans benefit at close range from the semi-automatic Garands and because the BAR doesn't suck as much compared to the MG42 at close range (70% of the MG42's FP at 40m and 40% at 500m). Also the Thompson SMG has a higher FP rating than either of the German MPs (better stopping power of the .45in bullet?)

The MG42s impact disproportionate impact on German squad FP means that even a shattered squad can still function as long as it still possesses its MG42. For example, a VG squad has two men left (25% strength) and its weapons consist of an MG42 and a K98. The squad has 30% of its original FP at 40m, 50% at 100m, 70% at 250m, and 85% at 500m. Pull the squad back off the front lines and it can still function effectively as a fire support weapon - an MG42 LMG has about one-third the FP of its tripod mounted bigger cousin.

Compare this to a Rifle 44 squad at 25% strength (3 men). I'll assume that its weaponry is two M1s and a BAR. This squad has 30% of original FP at 40m, 40% at 100m, 45% at 250m, and 50% at 500m - not nearly as good as the Germans.

Looking at these numbers it becomes apparent why the German squad revolved around its MG42, it was the lifeblood of the squad. It provides a massive proportion of the squads FP at longer ranges or for depleted squads (or both).

For German squads that have low manpower or low experience (conscripts in CE) sitting back and plinking away with the MG42 is the way to go. That conscript VG platoon isn't useless. Keep the Americans from firing at it (by providing better things for the Americans to shoot at) and its conscript status isn't as much of a liability. And the squad has definite advantages over the MG42 HMG as a support weapon. Sure the MG42 LMG's FP is one third of the HMG, but it's way faster and it doesn't lose ammo points if it takes casualties and subsequently moves.

Jason

Just wanted to tack on an addendum. While I have just looked at raw numbers in my above analysis, I am in no way saying that this is the only thing to look at. It's just that looking at numbers is something I'm good at doing. I'll leave the other types of analyses to the better qualified...

[This message has been edited by guachi (edited 02-23-2000).]

[Fionn]

Jason,

Mail me those excel charts will you? I'd be interested in pursuing this...

As for your conclusions...

What you say is correct in a way but in another way it would lead to losses on the field of battle.

It MIGHT be more efficient over time to plink away from 200 metres BUT the attrition which occurs at those ranges will be so gradual so as to ensure the enemy can bolster any threatened sectors quickly.

Secondly plinking does NOT favour the Germans because, generally, they have fewer men per squad so a 1: 1 exchange rate is highly unfavourable.

Close assaulting ensures disproportionate exchange rates. If you make a mistake it means you get anihilated but if you time it right it means you can get 2 or 3 to 1 exchange rates quite easily.

FWIW most of my fighting is done with Panzergrenadiers or Rifle 44s. I don't much use VGs.. With them the rules are a bit different.. They need lots more support weaponry to even the fight most times.

[guachi]

You're right. Firing at long range is no way to decide a battle. In the end, all that will happen is that you run out of ammo.

Although I can think of a few circumstances where firing at longer ranges would be good for the Germans. You want to keep the Americans busy while you bring up your own troops or support weapons. The area between you and the enemy is not conducive to being crossed. Or perhaps delay is more important than victory.

You can even do stuff like split up squads that have one MG42 and have that section fire while the other sits to conserve ammo.

Since a 12 an American squad has 50% more men than a typical 8 man German squad, in order for the Germans to go toe to toe the would need to bring 50% more fire power to bear. This really only occurs at long range.

Unfortunately, long range combat doesn't have on thing close combat does, the psychological effect of rapid casualties. Even a slight advantage at close range can turn into a massive rout of the enemy if he breaks. So all the stuff I wrote a couple posts above mean nothing if you don't take the psychological factors of the computer-soliders and the possibly human opponent into account.

As I mentioned a few posts above, there are two situations where sitting back and plinking is a good idea for a particular squad (regardless of other tactical considerations) - the unit is low on men or low in experience (or both). A three man conscript squad has no business being in close combat, but at least the German commander can take comfort in knowing that his MG42 armed squad isn't completely worthless.

Jason

[Lorak]

OK, don't laugh but a question. I hate for my squads to fire at long range. But they only way i can keep them from doing this is hiding them. Is this the only option?

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This is my rifle. There are many like it, but this is mine. It is my life. Without my rifle I am useless. Without me, my rifle is useless...

http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/combatmissionclub

[CoolColJ]

Man you guys are playing with number s- I sure don't analyse like that - I play it the way its meant to be played, by feel - I'm sick of all the old school in-depth number crucning. Real war isn't like that all - no dang soldier, says, my gun does 50 more fp over 200m than this other gun, so I'll do this ...

oh well

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CCJ

aka BLITZ_Force

My Hompage ----> http://www.geocities.com/coolcolj

Double your immersion with my Tweaked Textures and Saving Private Ryan sound set mods for CM!! Check out my new Textures V2.0 photo Gallery and my music while your there!

[Guest JonS]

Not true Col - real life training is all about effective weapons ranges, and playing to your advantages. Granted, that doesn't come down to calculating FPs, but it is the same thing in practice.

Personally I think there is a lot of merit in what Jason is doing. Without a sound understanding of how range affects the firepower of your squads you're just randomly moving blobs around. Some people will already have this knowledge, some will figure it out from books and articles, the others will be able to pick it up from playing the game, while some others will find the best way to work it all out in their heads will be with the use of aids such as Jasons spreadsheet.

Different strokes for different folks ...

Regards

Jon

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Ubique

[This message has been edited by JonS (edited 02-23-2000).]

[guachi]

The numbers in the game are just a reflection of the real capabilities of the weapon systems involved. They help quantify such nebulous terms as 'better' or 'faster'.

Using numbers is just a concrete way of looking at things you could have figured out intuitively. And CM is supposed to be realisitic so looking at the numbers should be a valid way of looking at things. How many games have we played where the numbers used don't reflect reality in any way?

If you want to play a game intuitively the player has to be confident that the underlying numbers represent reality.

Anyway, with all the weapon systems in the game, the numbers that you get when you hit ENTER give a great short hand overview of weapon systems you may have no clue as to their capabilities. In a sense, the numbers just reinforce a reality that may (or may not) already be aware of.

I don't sit with a spreadsheet when I play the game, but the stuff I've gathered from books, or this board, or my number crunching sit in the back of my head when I play.

Jason