Tanks too reluctant to fire HE at spotted troops in buildings?

[Bulletpoint]

I've been wondering about this for a long time. Tanks will nearly always fire HE at troops in the open, but when enemies are spotted in buildings, the tank seems more stingy with its HE ammo and prefers firing the MG. Shouldn't it be the other way around?

I know there are stories about tankers firing HE at any enemies spotted, but shouldn't that then include targets inside buildings?

[RockinHarry]

13 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said:

I've been wondering about this for a long time. Tanks will nearly always fire HE at troops in the open, but when enemies are spotted in buildings, the tank seems more stingy with its HE ammo and prefers firing the MG. Shouldn't it be the other way around?

I know there are stories about tankers firing HE at any enemies spotted, but shouldn't that then include targets inside buildings?

 

From my experience the AI is oftenly reluctant this way, when friendly infantry is nearby. There´s most likely a safety distance adhered to by the tac AI, measured from the to be targeted area, which could be anything from say... 50 to 300m, dependent upon HE calibre to avoid friendly casualties. At least it is so when it comes to an AI player. But you´re likely speaking of a human players assets?

[Bulletpoint]

11 minutes ago, RockinHarry said:

 

From my experience the AI is oftenly reluctant this way, when friendly infantry is nearby. There´s most likely a safety distance adhered to by the tac AI, measured from the to be targeted area, which could be anything from say... 50 to 300m, dependent upon HE calibre to avoid friendly casualties. At least it is so when it comes to an AI player. But you´re likely speaking of a human players assets?

Interesting, I never considered it might be to prevent friendly casualties. I'm talking about my own tanks, yes. They will sometimes fire a HE shot but only after, say, 30 seconds or longer of MG fire. And often the target ducks down out of view or runs out the back door before the tank will fire. Meanwhile, any infantry spotted in the open immediately gets HE attention.

[RockinHarry]

17 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said:

Interesting, I never considered it might be to prevent friendly casualties. I'm talking about my own tanks, yes. They will sometimes fire a HE shot but only after, say, 30 seconds or longer of MG fire. And often the target ducks down out of view or runs out the back door before the tank will fire. Meanwhile, any infantry spotted in the open immediately gets HE attention.

Yes I think it´s due to the tank gunner/commander beeing able to continually keeping the target in sight in the open. Once infantry in buildings dive down to prone, the gunner looses sight instantly and quits firing. Looks like the AI finds using HE for targets in the open more effective and I think it is. Most the time you get couple of kills immediately as opposed to inaccurate sprays of MG fire, yielding mostly suppression and fewer kills. Amount of onboard HE ammo also makes the AI reluctant to use it when rather scarce. In real life, most HE was used to get infantry going and then to be cut down with MG fire. Probably all of this is taken into consideration for the TacAI decisions to some point. My own tactics is mostly area firing HE on a building which I know contains enemy infantry and keeping friendlies at the safety distance same time.

[Erwin]

In the CMSF2 game, it has been noted that the Bradleys will often fire their main gun when ordered to TARGET LIGHT a building.  In fact, have seen em unload all their TOWS at a building 80 meters away -  sometime on their own initiative, and sometimes when ordered to TARGET LIGHT.

Can't figure out if this is some new SOP I don't recall seeing in CMSF1 or a bug.

[Bulletpoint]

8 hours ago, RockinHarry said:

Yes I think it´s due to the tank gunner/commander beeing able to continually keeping the target in sight in the open. Once infantry in buildings dive down to prone, the gunner looses sight instantly and quits firing. Looks like the AI finds using HE for targets in the open more effective and I think it is. Most the time you get couple of kills immediately as opposed to inaccurate sprays of MG fire, yielding mostly suppression and fewer kills. Amount of onboard HE ammo also makes the AI reluctant to use it when rather scarce. In real life, most HE was used to get infantry going and then to be cut down with MG fire. Probably all of this is taken into consideration for the TacAI decisions to some point. My own tactics is mostly area firing HE on a building which I know contains enemy infantry and keeping friendlies at the safety distance same time.

I understand it cab make sense to use HE against targets in the open, but they should also fire HE against buildings. And currently it seems tanks don't like to do that on their own initiative for some reason. 

[RockinHarry]

11 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

I understand it cab make sense to use HE against targets in the open, but they should also fire HE against buildings. And currently it seems tanks don't like to do that on their own initiative for some reason. 

In a current test game I had no problem getting a Hetzer under AI control in range (~300m) of a stone building, occupied by various US infantry. Once these revealed themselves by opening fire, the Hetzer crew got a sighting and within short time sent some HE, as well as MG bursts into the building. The AI order was a simple Assault and Normal. Other than the mentioned reasons, I have no further idea why your tanks are so reluctant. Off course there also remain the factors environmental condition , crew quality, probable low quality sighting equipment/optics in an AFV, suppression and maybe any particular enemy threat.

[Bulletpoint]

3 hours ago, RockinHarry said:

In a current test game I had no problem getting a Hetzer under AI control in range (~300m) of a stone building, occupied by various US infantry. Once these revealed themselves by opening fire, the Hetzer crew got a sighting and within short time sent some HE, as well as MG bursts into the building. The AI order was a simple Assault and Normal. Other than the mentioned reasons, I have no further idea why your tanks are so reluctant. Off course there also remain the factors environmental condition , crew quality, probable low quality sighting equipment/optics in an AFV, suppression and maybe any particular enemy threat.

You tested with full ammo? It's probably when some of the ammo has been spent. They decide to save it. But they don't hold back when spotting infantry in the open. At least that's my experience. Haven't formally tested it.

By the way, you don't need to set up an AI plan to test such things; you can just set up a hotseat game VS yourself

[RockinHarry]

13 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

You tested with full ammo? It's probably when some of the ammo has been spent. They decide to save it. But they don't hold back when spotting infantry in the open. At least that's my experience. Haven't formally tested it.

By the way, you don't need to set up an AI plan to test such things; you can just set up a hotseat game VS yourself

yap, I´m aware. The test game was just a module of a scenario WIP I´m working on ATM. Thus the reference to the used AI order scheme. That´s quite an interesting though different topic (setting up an AI player) and deserves another thread. :)

I set the Hetzer temporarily from full to severe ammo and it still pulled some HE shots off in same situation. Still think it´s part of the priority decision making process of the AI. So easy kills appear rarely beeing rejected, infantry in the open in particular.

[Bulletpoint]

21 minutes ago, RockinHarry said:

I set the Hetzer temporarily from full to severe ammo and it still pulled some HE shots off in same situation. Still think it´s part of the priority decision making process of the AI. So easy kills appear rarely beeing rejected, infantry in the open in particular.

Yeah the tanks do fire off some HE after waiting for a while, they just seem pretty reluctant. I would think enemy troops popping up in a building would be a priority target.

Wanted to know if other players noticed the same, or if it's just me. So far, it seems it's just me

[RockinHarry]

21 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said:

Yeah the tanks do fire off some HE after waiting for a while, they just seem pretty reluctant. I would think enemy troops popping up in a building would be a priority target.

Wanted to know if other players noticed the same, or if it's just me. So far, it seems it's just me

If you need somebody testing a particular file (with particular situation) of yours, just let me know. I´ve time ATM. 

[General Jack Ripper]

Most of the time, I use a Target Briefly on the building itself.

I have noticed, in CMSF2 at least, tanks are far more likely to sit and hose down a target with coax mg, especially if the target poses no threat to the tank.

If it's an AT team, they usually hit them with a few HE rounds double-quick.