Slapdragon Posted September 12, 2000 Share Posted September 12, 2000 Some excellent discussions about LOS and other mechanics have come about recently, but I thought it might be relevant to point out something about the simulation. If you start to hack around with the game engine, you see many things are abstracted. Tanks for instance are two wire frames (upper and lower) with a nice animation for tracks wrapped in a graphics file. The wire frames are abstracts of the tanks, with the flat graphic file filling in much of the detail. If you look at the frames, they do not fill in small parts of the tank, only gross shape. To test out the game when I got it, I made a custom scenario and "bought up" all of the tanks, infantry, and trucks I could and threw them on the biggest map I could. I ran the game on a Dell PIII-1000mhz and a Power Mac G4-500, very close matches in terms of computing power, and both with ATI cards. The game was playable (barely) and although the AI was a slug and animations stuttered, it kept chugging on. Thus, the game seems to be an excellent match to the hardware in our hands now. I have not seen a game that ran that close to the edge without going over since Marathon from Bungie. In other words, somehow a small design team was able to beat the best of the rest of the industry and bring a product to market that runs well on the hardware that is common. I can remember when team "Tank Battle" only ran on our SGI work stations, the PC "Tank Battle" we got shipped gratis never could turn the crank fast enough on our old P90s, the action would freeze, frames dropped like mad, and your shot would show up after your target had already "stuttered" into a new position. As a game, it was a bust, because who can afford to use an SGI to keep it going? I think in the end they were giving it away. In other words, we are going to kick the tires and find many places that don't conform to reality. CM2 will come out and some of the easier things, including the AI, will be fixed, but we have to face facts that if we demand something that needs more polygons to be drawn, more detailed physics and wire frames, and higher resolutions, we had better hold on for when the CM engine gets a bit long in the tooth, and the CM team retreats to build CM:TNG, something that would be a few years off even in the best of the world. That said, ten years from now we will be seeing fuzzy logic AIs that can simulate intelligence, stupidity, and self preservation, 24 bit color tectured wireframes with smart modules that turn the treads, spin the bogies, get mud splattered, and target ball turrets. We will have high resolution fractal trees (no two the same, but they all look like trees) and wire framed individual soldiers. Get down and dirty and you will see shell casings from the action of the weapon, you will see the tank commander frown as he comes around the bend, and you will see an infantryman stop to scratch is bottom before being yelled at by an AI controlled sergeant. So some of our critique should be labeled "speculative" rather than "BIGTIME DO RIGHT NOW!!!!!!!!" just because there are no good coding solutions that would not require us to own 8 processor IBM render stations. That said, if my M4A3 ever passes up another tail shot at a Panther I will shoot the whole crew and sell their tank to good will Steve Jackson [This message has been edited by Slapdragon (edited 09-12-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Posted September 12, 2000 Share Posted September 12, 2000 I too have loaded the biggest size game on my little AMD 6K 450 just to see how much it can handle and I see the same extreme slow down, so I know now that I am not alone. I'm not as experienced at playing computer games as you are, this is my first computer and I've only had it for one year, but I am amazed at what I see happening in this game, it never fails to surprise me. I wish BTS good fortune in their future endeavors and hope CM2 is as good and better than CMBO. ------------------ Blessed be the Lord my strength who teaches my hands to war and my fingers to fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindan Posted September 12, 2000 Share Posted September 12, 2000 Good post Steve. IMHO the many nitpickers out there (no offense meant to the people starting and sustaining valuable discussions) miss a point that makes the game so valuable for me. In spite of some (minor) shortcomings and (necessary) abstractions, it just FEELS right. For me at least. <font size=-2> Hey Madmatt, do I get the "Sycophants cross with oak leaves" now?</font> ------------------ visit lindan.panzershark.com member of the Combat Mission webring Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michlos Posted September 12, 2000 Share Posted September 12, 2000 Very good post! I have to say that discussing MINOR additions can be healthy and, I might be wrong but, it might even help BTS in their work on making CM even better (possible?). However looking at some (not all) suggestions in this forum i would say that some people just don't know when to stop : ) PS. thanx for the link Lindan : ) ------------------ < All gave some, some gave ALL> Owner of MiNa's CMBO Page http://come.to/combatmission Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_tom_w Posted September 12, 2000 Share Posted September 12, 2000 Just think what kind video wargames our kids will "get to" play 10 years from now.... "That said, ten years from now we will be seeing fuzzy logic AIs that can simulate intelligence, stupidity, and self preservation, 24 bit color tectured wireframes with smart modules that turn the treads, spin the bogies, get mud splattered, and target ball turrets. We will have high resolution fractal trees (no two the same, but they all look like trees) and wire framed individual soldiers." The Sony Play Station II is starting to try to claim almost that kind of performance level now.. -tom w Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenBear Posted September 12, 2000 Share Posted September 12, 2000 BTS has done an exceptional job both with the game itself and support/marketing. Ditto Michlos' comments that discussion is healthy. What ever additons are made can only add to the positive game experience. ------------------ Some Days the Bear gets YOU! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mensch Posted September 12, 2000 Share Posted September 12, 2000 well I got me at home my ol Power PC (mac) 300mhz, macMagic pro vid card..ok graphics can be better..doh. but I am making the scenario where the 3rd Canadian Regiment (yes I said regiment) and the 12th SS Regiment (yes regiment gain) first made contact north west of Caen, its a max map 3.2km by 2.8km or so and a hell of alot of tanks and troops, it took three minutes to rev that baby up and takes the computer thinking time of about 5-10 minutes and another 5 minutes just to crunch the number to watch a one minute round..guha... but what a show..wowsa.. and no slow downs while I watch the movie.. cool yup good post I look foward to seeing any updates BTS pumps out nice thread.. ah such a change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PawBroon Posted September 12, 2000 Share Posted September 12, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by aka_tom_w: The Sony Play Station II is starting to try to claim almost that kind of performance level now... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> What?! CM runs on a SPS2? Jeez, that's patching awright... ------------------ Either he's dead or my watch has stopped Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gaffertape Posted September 12, 2000 Share Posted September 12, 2000 Excellent comments, SNAPDRAGON. Being the owner of a lower-end system, I am extremely gratified that BTS made many of the visual goodies optional. Cheers! GAFF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IntelWeenie Posted September 12, 2000 Share Posted September 12, 2000 "Pie-in-the-sky" or "lowest common denominator" has been a sticky choice to make for software designers since, well since software has been witten. Backwards compatability for software and hardware has (and I would suggest always be) a BIG ISSUE. The trick is getting the most out of the old stuff while taking advantage of the new stuff enough to avoid instant obsolescence. I think BTS did just that with the release of CM:BO. Will they be able to pull it off again with CM2:TEF? I hope so. Rational, reasoned discussion of features and programming possibilities is always a good thing. True, some things that have been asked for push the limits, but if the moon is never asked for, you'll never get there. I try to consider the limits of CM's game engine and the *likely* limits of CM2 when posting, but I don't have much problem with those that ask for things to be considered for future releases. ------------------ Canada: Where men were men, unless they were horses. -Dudley Do-right Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slapdragon Posted September 12, 2000 Author Share Posted September 12, 2000 Speaking of Intel: Notice how well the game runs on Intel machines? That is a trick, because you have no real "standards" for the way color is drawn to a screen, no two machine / video card combinations do it the same. I know DirectX is suppose to solve that, but how many games do you know force you to tweek, throw out, or otherwise mess with Direct-X to get them to work. CM worked right away with my Dell, when it took the whole day to load SSI's Steel Panthers (finally had to downgrade to DirectX 5). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diceman Posted September 12, 2000 Share Posted September 12, 2000 I think the current debates are very healthy. You'd be amazed at how much customer input went into this game. To list a few improvements motivated by customer input: much improved smoke graphics, the artillary and mortor modeling, improved armor modeling of the Tiger turret, much improved target disciplin of tanks, and the expansion of points for quick battles. There are probably many more that I can't think of right now. CM is the kind of game that would cause me to go out and buy a computer if I didn't already have one, but it still has room for improvement. ------------------ Pair-O-Dice "Once a Diceman, Always a Diceman." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slapdragon Posted September 12, 2000 Author Share Posted September 12, 2000 Sure -- those all are doable issues, a matter of tweeking tables in some cases, or even tough like rebuilding the AI but not hurting performance, just some of the LOS arguments are perfectly valid but undoable unless they write for 64mb 3DFX cards fielded on multiprocessor NT and MacOS machines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slapdragon Posted September 19, 2000 Author Share Posted September 19, 2000 I thought this discussion needed to come back up top after Swmp-childs little rant. Swamp-- Learn something about how computers work, or go play Quake against the other children. If anyone else wants to have a reasoned flameless discussion of SOTA graphics and 3D models -- lets talk! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scott Clinton Posted September 19, 2000 Share Posted September 19, 2000 I would just like to chime in here and state I am currently playing a PBEM game against an individual that goes by the id of "SWAMPER"...this is not the same person as "SWAMP". Of that I am sure. IMO CM will EASILY win wargame of the year in EVERY poll, survey worth a crap this year. I think that speaks volumes. As a matter of fact if CM fails to win in ANY survey, poll you should note the publication/site because they don't know **** about wargames. Just my two cents. ------------------ Please note: The above is solely the opinion of 'The Grumbling Grognard' and reflects no one else's views but his own. [This message has been edited by Scott Clinton (edited 09-19-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted September 19, 2000 Share Posted September 19, 2000 Thanks all... This is has been our position since long before the game was even in Beta. There is only so much time to code, so many CPU cycles to tap into, VRAM to use, and older machines to drop support for. We are well aware that we have had to make compromises and abstractions in order to keep things realistic, playable, and fun at the same time. This is no easy task, but we think it is obvious to any observer that we did a damned good job We have NO problem with people asking for, even if a little strongly, new features including graphical improvements. However, we don't take kindly to people that either demand such things (like they are our boss) or lose perspective about the game as a whole. The former is very much what we want to see here, the latter is just a waste of time to read because more often than not the "demands" are unreasonable and often harmfull. I chalk it up to "I don't tell you how to do your job, so please don't tell me how to do mine". In the end Combat Mission is just a game. OK, perhaps a very special one, but it isn't something that should be held to impossible and unreasonable standards. CM will improve over time, both graphically and game wise. That much is assured Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slapdragon Posted September 19, 2000 Author Share Posted September 19, 2000 Damn Straight! What ever that means... Now if I can just get the computer to fire tungsten, I will be happy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Dan Posted September 19, 2000 Share Posted September 19, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software: Thanks all... In the end Combat Mission is just a game. OK, perhaps a very special one, but it isn't something that should be held to impossible and unreasonable standards. CM will improve over time, both graphically and game wise. That much is assured Steve<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yes, a special game that makes people want to play more...and more. I'm honestly not sure I understand why all the fussing about graphics. CM is great because it PLAYS SO WELL. Chess has crummy graphics too, but people have been playing it for thousands of years. IMO, BTS should be congratulated for breaking new ground in TECHNIQUE, for making the game work well despite the limitations of available computer hardware. Dan CM is fun! [This message has been edited by Dr Dan (edited 09-19-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swamper Posted September 19, 2000 Share Posted September 19, 2000 I am the "Swamper" that Scott Clinton is referring to and I definitely have no idea who Swamp is.. I have to laugh because I have been selling, building, fixing computers since the days of the 286's so I think I can lay claim to knowing something about them My nick is a derivative of from Francis Marion's nick: Swamp Fox Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scott Clinton Posted September 19, 2000 Share Posted September 19, 2000 AHHHhaaa! Swamper, you lurker you! Made ya show yourself! ------------------ Please note: The above is solely the opinion of 'The Grumbling Grognard' and reflects no one else's views but his own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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