Mikester Posted July 31, 2000 Share Posted July 31, 2000 Gentlemen (Ladies too?), I'm trying to gather some info to better understand a few things about operations and how they work. For all of you that have played an operation please answer the following for each op played: 1) What operation did you play. 2) Were you the attacker or defender. 3) Were you playing against a human opponent, or the computer. 4) What version of CM was it played under (v1.01, 1.02, 1.03, etc.) 5) After what battle out of how many total battles did the operation end (e.g. battle 2 of 6 total battles). 6) What was the result? Attacker win, Defender win, draw. For a win what was the level of victory, total victory, minor victory, tactical victory, etc. Thanks much to all that reply. Mike D aka Mikester Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L.Tankersley Posted July 31, 2000 Share Posted July 31, 2000 Team DeSobry. I defended against the computer using v1.01. The operation lasted 6 of 6 battles, and I (the defender) won. I think it was a major victory but I don't remember for sure. ------------------ Leland J. Tankersley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IntelWeenie Posted July 31, 2000 Share Posted July 31, 2000 I have played a couple all the way through so far (both on v1.01 vs. AI): Utrechseweg: Played as Germans (attacker) Won after 6 battles (total) A Day in the Cavalry: Played as both, won both. German, minor victory, US total ------------------ "Belly to belly and everything's better" - Russian proverb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikester Posted July 31, 2000 Author Share Posted July 31, 2000 Hey Leland, I'm curious as to how far the attacker got from where he started in battle 1 in relation to getting all the way to the far side of the operations map. Did he get nowhere (sounds like this is what happened). Half way to far side of the map by end of battle 6? Etc. Thanks. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted July 31, 2000 Share Posted July 31, 2000 2 Operations so far: 1)Drive to Mortain 2)amis (attacker) 3)PBEM 4)1.01 5)2 of 6 6)amis win (see thread labeled "warning, warning") 1)Team Desobry 2)Germans (attacker) 3)PBEM 4)2 of 6 5)2 of 6 6)German win ------------------ The dead know only one thing - it is better to be alive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WendellM Posted July 31, 2000 Share Posted July 31, 2000 I played one operation shortly after getting the game, mostly to get a feel for what operations were all about. 1) A Day in the Cavalry 2) Attacker 3) Computer 4) 1.01 5) The last scheduled one, 4 6) Draw (I made it all the way across the map, but took too many losses along the way) My main impression was that ops produce a more protective feeling than stand-alone battles, since you need to preserve troops/equipment for the next fight. Wendell [This message has been edited by WendellM (edited 07-31-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalem Posted July 31, 2000 Share Posted July 31, 2000 1) What operation did you play. a) Day in the Cav Stolberg c) Arnhem/Red Devils d) Team DeSobry e) Carentan f) Day in the Cav 2) Were you the attacker or defender. a) Attacker Attacker c) Attacker d) Defender e) Defender f) Defender 3) Were you playing against a human opponent, or the computer. a) computer computer c) computer d) computer e) computer f) computer 4) What version of CM was it played under (v1.01, 1.02, 1.03, etc.) a) 1.01 1.01 c) 1.01 d) 1.01 e) 1.01 f) 1.03 5) After what battle out of how many total battles did the operation end (e.g. battle 2 of 6 total battles). a) all all c) all d) 1 (infamous 'frontline pullback issue' already discussed) e) 2 turns, quit playing because of above issue. f) still playing, on last battle, above problem doesn't seem fixed in 1.03. 6) What was the result? a) win win c) win d) loss - disputed, of course e) quit f) not finished Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Stone Posted July 31, 2000 Share Posted July 31, 2000 Played the Operation with Wittman's Tigers/as German attckers/versus computer/ v1.01/ german attacker (me) won after battle #2. What are you trying to ferret out? Later Stone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L.Tankersley Posted July 31, 2000 Share Posted July 31, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mikester: I'm curious as to how far the attacker got from where he started in battle 1 in relation to getting all the way to the far side of the operations map. Did he get nowhere (sounds like this is what happened). Half way to far side of the map by end of battle 6? Etc. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> My thread "Q on start line determination..." concerned this (Team DeSobry) operation. I only know details about MY start line, but after battle #1 I was pushed back from the front of the town to the back. I regained this territory for battle #3, was pushed back again for battles 4 & 5. For the final battle #6 I was pushed back a bit more (only a few town buildings were in my setup area) but it took the entire 15 minutes for the German attack forces to even get close enough for me to spot them. The only orders I gave in the last scenario were to my artillery FOs, shifting fire missions around to where I guessed the enemy might be. I haven't played yet under 1.03 with the changes to the algorithm, and I didn't go into the operation to change the default "no-man's land" size. ------------------ Leland J. Tankersley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Priest Posted July 31, 2000 Share Posted July 31, 2000 I played the Red Devils of Arnham. I was the defender It was against the computer It was version 1.01 I think it was 6 battles The defender (British) had a major victory and held both sides of the bridge. It was really easy (probably because it was against the computer) but other than the first battle only two or three Germans even reached their objectives. ------------------ Sir are you sure you want to go to red alert...it would mean changing the bulb -Priest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GI Tom Posted July 31, 2000 Share Posted July 31, 2000 1. Day in the Cavalry 2. Attacker 3. Computer 4. 1.02 5. 4 out of 4 battles 6. Attacker win. Can't recall the specific. Hope that helps for your purposes. I'm curious too what your trying to extract from this info.. GI Tom ------------------ To a New Yorker like you, a hero is some type of wierd sandwich. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikester Posted July 31, 2000 Author Share Posted July 31, 2000 David / everyone, Sorry, I'm going to ramble just a bit here. Please bear with me because I "think" I'm trying to make a fairly important point. Among other things one of the main points I'm trying to understand better is if the defender in an advance type of op can actually win the op. Especially against a human opponent vs. the "lame" (i.e. fairly non-agressive compared to most human players) attacking of the computer which in my view does not lend itself very well at all to this type of a scenario. I did a little experiment yesterday setting up a quick op and running through some different variations in terms of how quick (i.e. how many battles out of the total number of battles) the attacker reached the far side of the op map and what victory level that equated to. There were no casualties so that was factored out of the experiment. Surprisingly (to me anyways), even if the attacker didn't reach the end of the map until battle 6 of 6 in the test he still got a tactical victory. The range of results varied from attacker Total Victory for reaching the far edge at end of battle 2 of 6 (which is as fast as possible the way it was setup as the map was 2000m long and the individual battle map sliding window was only set to 1200m long), to something (can't remember exactly at the moment) like a minor victory for getting there after 4-5 battles out of 6, etc. Therefore it appears the only way that the defender can get some level of victory is to prevent him (attacker) from ever reaching the back of the map at all, or perhaps allowing him to only reach it say in battle 5 of 6 or 6 of 6 while inflicting massive casualties on the attacker. Guess what it boils down to is that I'm trying to determine if a human defender can play against a relatively competent human attacker and have any real hope of ever actually achieving a victory as the defender in the advance type of operations. From what I've read here so far and in other threads I'm getting the impression that people have achieved defensive victories in these types of op's but it has mostly been against the computer. However, I'm beginning to believe that the defender doesn't have much of a chance to attain, say a Total Victory, playing against a human opponent. Why do I say this. The only way I could get a total victory for the defender in my experiment was to have the attacker sit at the same point he started at in his setup in battle 1 and never move forward at all. I also looked at what happened if the attacker moved forward appx. 1/2 (actually a little more) of the distance from where he started to the far edge of the op map by the end of battle 6 of 6 and this resulted in a draw. So casualties not withstanding (and the manual says these are not counted as heavily in advance type ops) it appears the defender could battle on for 6 battles and only give up about half of the distance that the attacker needs to cross to reach the far side of the op map and achieve no victory at all. In my view this should probably be at least a marginal victory for the defender, but in the games view this apparently is not the case. Obviously the other factors here are the casualties and the force balance (and reinforcements) as controlled by the scenario designer. However, on the face of it right now it appears to me to be way too difficult for the defender in these types of ops to achieve any real level of victory. He can stop the attacker stone cold except for a minor advance in the last battle during the entire operation and only end up getting a draw? Somehow this doesn't seem right to me at all. Especially when you go read the manual and it states that the level of victory will be judged upon the speed with which the attacker reaches the far side of the map thus forcing the op to end. If I stop the attacker cold for 5 out of 6 battles of the op and then only give up say half the distance to the far edge to him in the battle 6 of 6, and the game is supposed to be judged on how fast the attacker advances, then in my view that really is probably more of a Major Victory for the defender. But again, in the game it's just a draw. What do the rest of you think??? Mike [This message has been edited by Mikester (edited 07-31-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WendellM Posted July 31, 2000 Share Posted July 31, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Among other things one of the main points I'm trying to understand better is if the defender in an advance type of op can actually win the op. Especially against a human opponent opponent vs. the "lame" (i.e. fairly non-agressive compared to most human players) attacking of the computer<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I'm not too sold on the computer's defense, either. I was new to CM, and thus not really skilled during my first (and, to date, only) operation against the computer. Also, since I was just "playing around" in order to get some idea about ops, I got a bit bored toward the end (the second half of the third battle, and all of the last battle), and took to just selecting all my attacking troops and ordering them to Move toward the enemy. In spite of all this, I still achieved a draw. If I were to replay it now, with what I've learned, I know that I'd do much better. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>What do the rest of you think???<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> It sounds like you have some legitimate concerns. My general (non-operation) experience has been that the AI is rather weak. It doesn't make overtly stupid mistakes, but it's usually pretty easy to beat (once you learn the rules/combat system), whether on offense or defense. My impression is that it's better in localized sections of the battlefield (TacAI), but doesn't have a good grasp of the entire battle ("Strat"AI). Compound that with a multi-battle operation, and I'm not surprised that it falls apart against a skilled human. Creating good AI is tough, and a realistic game like CM makes it even tougher. If BTS could use testing from CM players against possible replacement algorithms to improve AI for battles/ops, then I'm sure they'd have lots of volunteers. Wendell [This message has been edited by WendellM (edited 07-31-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peterk Posted August 1, 2000 Share Posted August 1, 2000 Arnhem Defender Computer Opponent 1.01 6 of 6 defender total win Team De Sobry Defender Computer Opponent 1.01 after battle 1 of 6 (ended early due to?) attacker total win (buggy asessment!) A Day In the Cavalry Attacker Computer Opponent 1.01 4 of 4 defender tactical win Drive To Mortain Defender Computer Opponent 1.01 6 of 6 defender total win Carentan Defender Computer Opponent 1.01 & 1.03 7 of 9 so far - still going ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikester Posted August 1, 2000 Author Share Posted August 1, 2000 Thanks for all the replys so far guys. Now that I'm here at home here are the results of my experiment. Op map size was 2000m long (attack direction) and 1040m wide. Battle sliding window was set to min. of 1200m (so there's no way the op could actually end after the first battle since the attacker cannot physically reach the far side of the op map). No-mans land was set to max of 400m (although in this part of the testing it really doesn't matter). Attacker started at 500m from his edge of the map which means he had to go 1500m to get to the far side of the op map. There were 6 day battles and no night battles. The attacker American had several tanks, HT's, etc., and 2 platoons of infantry. The Germans had 2 platoons of infantry. The Germans were always setup as far forward as possible and hidden during the entire battle. There were no engagements and no casualties on purpose to remove this aspect from the experiment. The american forces were then driven down the map in order to force the op to end at the end of the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th battles (Cases 3 thru 7 below). Again note there was no way to have them exit at the end of the first battle as this was physically impossible. I also ran the case (case 1 below) where they sat at there start positions as setup before battle 1 and never moved forward at all as well as moving them appx. 700m (little over half way to far op map edge) to the end of the first battle map at end of battle 6 to simulate their only getting part way to the end before end of the op (case 2 below). The results were as follows: Case 1: Axis Total Victory Case 2: 1 draw, then ran again and got Allied Minor Victory (neither result makes sense to me considering the Germans held them from moving anywhere for 5 out of the 6 battles and they then only allowed them about half way to the far edge of the map in the final battle) Case 3: Allied Total Victory (op ended after 2nd battle) Case 4: Allied Major Victory Case 5: Allied Tactical Victory Case 6: Allied Minor Victory Case 7: Allied Minor Victory (op ended at end of battle 6 with American's reaching end of operations map). Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikester Posted August 1, 2000 Author Share Posted August 1, 2000 Back to top. Still looking for reply's from all you folks that have played an operation. Also, in light of my testing noted above, looking for your views on advance type operations and whether the defender really has much of a chance to attain any form of significant victory when playing against a human attacker. Thanks again. Mikester out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oberst Angsthase Posted August 1, 2000 Share Posted August 1, 2000 Carentan Defender Computer v1.01 7 of 9 Defender Total Victory Drive to Mortain Defender Computer v1.01 5 of ? Defender Total Victory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peterk Posted August 1, 2000 Share Posted August 1, 2000 Hey Mikester, A little comment on your Case2 draw result that seems a little funny. If the attack got stalled completely there would probably be high casualties as well on the attacker side and that would probably push the score way over towards the defender. Likewise, a lot of the attacker victories will probably shift towards the defender since the attacker usually takes more casualties. p. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mscano Posted August 2, 2000 Share Posted August 2, 2000 I played "Utrechtseweg"(Arnhem Area) as the British paras on defense against a computer controlled Axis attacker in version 1.01 of the game. The game had a maximum of 12 battles and it went all the way to the end, although, I miss night combat everytime for some reason (I not complaining.). I clawed out a draw. "Utrechtseweg" is a user made op that I downloaded from www.gamesofwar.de . It's probably posted elsewhere too. It's a good one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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