57mm AT gun

[guachi]

I've got a question.

From my reading, it looks like the 57mm AT was a battalion/regimental level gun for the American military.

Why wasn't this gun ever put on a vehicle. Or if it was, which ones were they?

The virtually worthless 37mm gun was put on armored cars and the Stuart. It seems to me that the 57mm gun would have been well suited to the light tank role (although perhaps too big for an armored car)

Jason

[Major Tom]

My knowledge of the weapon is that it is the British 6 Pounder in American use reclassified as the dimention of the barrel (or Shell?). The British tended to state the weight of the shell to denote the size of the weapon. 2 Pounder had a 2 pound shell, 25 Pounder, etc... At least this is what I think.

The Americans were issued the 6 pounder, as, I don't think that they developed an Infantry Anti-Tank Gun larger than the 37mm until later in the war with their 75mm. They had to use something to fill the gap. They had Shermans and Lees already armed with the 75mm, but, for some reason didn't make an Anti-Tank Gun version of it for a while.

Since they already had the 75mm, which was a larger gun than the 57mm, on tanks there was no need to arm themselves with a smaller weapon. On the contrary, British tanks armed with the 57mm were usually upgraded to 75mm. Vehicles it was put on: Cromwell, Crusader, Valentine, Churchill.

The Americans recieved their first 57mm's in 1942 when they and the British landed in Algeria. And not in exremely large numbers. The Stuart was a prewar design. Take a look at it's turret, it could barely fit the 37mm it already had! The Allies also didn't take too much to have their Armoured Cars armed so that they could take on enemy tanks like the Germans. It would result in them having Scout cars fighting instead of scouting.

Plus, by 1942 with the Tiger just entering service they 57mm was beginning to show the end of its life. Frankly, I thought that it was plain idiotic to issue Allied units the Stuart in 1944, let alone the Sherman

[This message has been edited by Major Tom (edited 01-19-2000).]

[Fionn]

I just lost 9 tanks in 73 seconds to 3 dug-in 57mm AT guns which the AI put in beautiful positions.

Lost 3 Panthers and 6 Pz IV Js ...

I have a nice shot of one of the 57mm guns which killed 2 Panthers and 2 Pz IV Js and 1 SPW 251/1

Nasty little bugger if it gets you in the flank.

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Fionn Kelly

Manager of Historical Research,

The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers

[WWIIRulz]

hehe there you go again Fionn, making us jealous!

[Cueball]

If I remember correctly it had a higher muzzle velocity and armor penetration than the 75mm on the Sherman.

[Pirate]

The 57mm was used on the canadian Ram as well

[Simon Fox]

The British phased out the 6pdr on their tanks and replaced it with the 75mm in order to standardize tank ammunition since they also had lots of Shermans and to a lesser extent because of the better HE performance.

There was a lot of resistance to this process in British units and it was slow since by that stage the 6pdr was almost exclusively using the sabot ammunition (scenario designers take note) which was a much better anti-armour option than the 75mm with standard AP.

Anybody know if the 17pdr used a sabot round and how common it was.

[Guest Zigster]

At the time of Normandy, the 17 pdr had available its original APCBC solid shot projectile.

In August '44 a super-velocity discarding sabot round (SVDS - also called APDS) became available, but only in limited numbers. High density tungsten carbide core in light carrier -- blah, blah, usual stuff.

The new discarding sabot round dramatically increased armour penetration. However, the early production ammunition was a little erratic and not as accurate as the solid shot.

Also available were APC (i'm not sure how that differs from APCBC) and standard HE.

Some folks say the 17 pdrs didn't carry HE, but I'm unconvinced.

[Guest Mike]

APC = Armour Piercing Capped. The hard penetrator has a blunter cap made of softer metal. When the shot hits armour, the softer metal distorts and spreads the load across a wider area ofteh penetrator than would otherwise be the case.

APCBC = Armour Piercing Capped Ballistic Capped. As APC but fitted with a thin nose cone to give better ballistic profile.

The 17lb gun was certainly provided with HE in WW2, and was occasionally used as a field gun late rwhen there wasn't so much demand for anti-tank work.

Mike

[Simon Fox]

I agree with Mike, the 17pdr definitely was supplied with HE, though by all accounts in the Firefly it was generally stowed in the old co-drivers position (only 4 crew) and a little inaccessible. This is because of the way Firefly's were employed ie mainly to engage tanks and SPs.

[Goanna]

Hey Fionn -

Can you post that picture you speak of or send me the .jpeg by e-mail. How about an overhead of the map showing the placement too with your characteristic coloured crayon markup. (someday they'll let you have sharp objects again)

I will shout you a Shiner Bock when I ever see you.

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desert rat wannabe

[Guest Offwhite]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Major Tom:

The Americans ... had Shermans and Lees already armed with the 75mm, but, for some reason didn't make an Anti-Tank Gun version of it for a while.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wasn't it because US anti-tank doctrine concentrated on mobile TD's rather than towed AT guns? The M-10 and M-18 each had a 76mm gun, which as we all know from the demo can sometimes kill Tigers...

On the other hand, the US Army also had the puzzling habit of calling the eventual 76mm towed gun a "tank destroyer," causing no end of headaches for us scenario designers.