Read Here For Status Of Issues Reported With New Public Beta b22!!!!

[Spii]

Keep up the QUality work Matt and Charles!

[Samhain]

Thanks BTS for the quick fixes. It's refreshing to see a developer that serves its customer base so well.

Where can we dl the previous patch/version until the new fixes--it's just too unstable right now. I searched the forum archives for the announcement of the last patch, but the link downloaded the new one, since the files have the same name.

Thanks.

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Hope you got your things together,

Hope you are quite prepared to die. --CCR

[This message has been edited by Samhain (edited 12-18-2000).]

[jefflackey]

Does this latest and greatest help with the graphics problem some Voodoo 5 owners see (where you have to run in FSAA mode to see some text, etc.)?

Thanks

Jeff Lackey

[Mr. Clark]

SamHain, do what I did... put all of your ladder or important PBeM games on hold for now (till the new beta patch), and keep playing around with the b22 patch to see if you can spot any more bugs.

(I was gonna send you a copy of the b16 patch, but I realized I saved over it with the new file.)

[Samhain]

Thanks for the offer (I unwisely saved over mine too). So far I haven't noticed anything odd other than the bogging and the crash to the desktop, but point taken about looking further. Since one of my biggest interests in the game is the AFV's, I've just been less inclined to play since the patch. Can't wait for the next one with the improved German tank AI, though

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I rode a tank, held a general's rank

When the blitzkrieg raged, and the bodies stank.

--Rolling Stones

[This message has been edited by Samhain (edited 12-18-2000).]

[Mr. Clark]

I always play ALLIES, so I'm actually shuddering in fear at the Improved German Tank AI...

I hope no more bugs are uncovered, so we can have the updated file for X-Mas time.

[Lee]

Uggh, I guess I'll have to wait to continue my CM matches until the

new patch comes out. There is no way I can afford to have my tanks

bogging all over the place, hehe.

Please hurry this update if you can, Charles, just getting rid of that

bogging bug is critical to playing any serious match. The

b22 patch apparently has lots of games frozen on hold till we can get

the update. This means CM withdrawal, and CM withdrawal = bad.

[Oddball_E8]

I have something to add... maby not a bug but still oh so annoying.

when playing a standard qb (ie no change in the settings) as allies you now almost always get a tank or two... but not as the axis... ive played at least twelve times since the patch. and not once have i gotten a tank... the closest i got was a puma. and that was on the twelfth try...

just a pet peeve of mine.

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Wof, wof, wof, wof... Thats my other dog imitation.

[Guest Madmatt]

Looking into this now Oddball. I know that Defenders will not get as many tanks (points are used more for AT guns and the like) but in some tests I just ran I do some see possible oddities.

Now, this could be more of an issue with the Combined Arms setting as that promotes a better mix of mechanized and infantry units. I do get plenty of StuG's, Wespes, Marders and a Hetzer or two with CA. When I switched to Armor I was again nice and tank heavy but with plenty of supporting infantry.

I will ask Charles if this is the way he wants it or if maybe the Combined Arms logic needs to get another nudge towards tanks.

Madmatt

[This message has been edited by Madmatt (edited 12-18-2000).]

[Crank_GS]

Whenever I play, all my tanks blow up and my guys die. Is this a bug?

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Capt. Byron Crank, US Army

[Biff]

It would be nice if the developers put the

Error: line from the error log that is fixed in the docs distributed with the new versions

of the game. That way I can tell if a problem that I am having is fixed or not (I don't want to waste my time when I know a particular bug will dump me to the desktop and prevent me from finishing a battle).

[Oddball_E8]

well the games that i play are the size of 500 points (since im a lazy bastard and never change the settings from the standard settings) and i am gettnig no stugs or anyghing. i did get a marder once now that i think back... it was the first fight after the new patch so thats why i didnt count it but still... there should be a bit more guns... heck i havent even gotten some decent at guns... mostly (with some exceptions) i get 75mm inf guns and 20mm flak... not exactly top-notch at guns if you get my drift... although it is great fun watching a 150mm take out a tank... KABOOM!!!!!!!!

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Wof, wof, wof, wof... Thats my other dog imitation.

[Vanir]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Madmatt:

* Armored vehicles are smarter about rotating their hulls to bring their

main weapons to bear faster. This one is HUGE!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree, it is huge. Hopefully these two small sub-features will be included also:

1. Tanks will begin firing as soon as the gun gets to the firing position, regardless of where the hull is. The hull can continue to rotate between shots but firing should never be delayed to rotate the hull further.

2. TacAI will understand that it is neither necessary or desirable to rotate the hull all the way perpendicular to the enemy incoming fire. CM's physics model does a great job of modeling the effect of oblique angles on armor penetration but the TacAI seems to be ignorant of it. I've had some very frustrating moments when I've moved my vehicles to engage an enemy AT unit and I have placed it at an oblique angle only to see the TacAI "square up" the vehicle to the target. Ideally the TacAI will stop the rotation of the hull when it is 25-30 degrees off perpendicular so as to maximize it's frontal protection.

You guys are great. Keep up the good work!

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You mean my Java coded Real Time Bar Fight Simulator Madmatt Mission: Beyond BiteMe ISN'T going to be published?!?

Madmatt

[Olle Petersson]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Madmatt:

* Armored vehicles are smarter about rotating their hulls to bring their

main weapons to bear faster.

...

This ... also helps German vehicles get the gun on target faster.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>It doesn't help the German vehicles a lot unless the hull rotation stops as soon as the gun is on target. Otherwise it will swing way past the target as the turret rotation struggle in vain to compensate for the hull movement.

Otherwise it seem like a nice feature.

Cheers

Olle

[Degrees of Frost]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Vanir:

I agree, it is huge. Hopefully these two small sub-features will be included also:

....

2. TacAI will understand that it is neither necessary or desirable to rotate the hull all the way perpendicular to the enemy incoming fire. CM's physics model does a great job of modeling the effect of oblique angles on armor penetration but the TacAI seems to be ignorant of it. I've had some very frustrating moments when I've moved my vehicles to engage an enemy AT unit and I have placed it at an oblique angle only to see the TacAI "square up" the vehicle to the target. Ideally the TacAI will stop the rotation of the hull when it is 25-30 degrees off perpendicular so as to maximize it's frontal protection.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As to point 2 :- Were tank crews trained to go oblique against individual enemy tanks ?

In engagments at shorter ranges (500-700m), that are so prevalent in CM, would that constitute a sound tactic against enemy tanks operating in platoon ?.

Wouldn't the TC want to get the frontal armour facing the first enemy tank spotted and assume it had other tanks accompanying it ?

By going oblique wouldn't the TC be then presenting side armour to other tanks in the enemy platoon ?

I imagine if the TacAI was programmed to go oblique this "quirk/feature" of the TacAI would be used/abused to set up flank shots, much more easily than at present, by using one tank engage from front on to turn the target tank oblique and then a second at an angle to get a shot off at the flank.

It would be nice to be able to order a tank oblique - a "rotate and freeze order" or something .....

Sorry for rambling - I was actually just going to leave it at the question.

[Jarmo]

I remember reading somewhere (probably in this forum ), that at least the Tiger I

crews were trained to go oblique. But it might be an exception, that one has almost as

thick sides as the front.

With Panther, going for 30 degrees would be just stupid.

[Guest rune]

Biff,

It is BETA code. IF you read the documentation, you will see they want the error codes so they can fix it. If you don't want to "waste your time" then go with 1.05. The purpose here is to help BTS. If you are more concerned with finishing games, then play 1.05 until the final version comes out.

Rune

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Biff:

It would be nice if the developers put the

Error: line from the error log that is fixed in the docs distributed with the new versions

of the game. That way I can tell if a problem that I am having is fixed or not (I don't want to waste my time when I know a particular bug will dump me to the desktop and prevent me from finishing a battle).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Biff]

Let's say I turned in a bug with the errorlog.txt, etc... Let's say they come out with a new beta. If the docs state they think they have fixed the problem causing that error code then I will try the game otherwise I will assume they haven't fixed the bug I turned in and will have wasted my time if I hit the same bug in the new beta.

All I'm asking for is that the developers include which error code bugs are fixed in a particular beta.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rune:

Biff,

It is BETA code. IF you read the documentation, you will see they want the error codes so they can fix it. If you don't want to "waste your time" then go with 1.05. The purpose here is to help BTS. If you are more concerned with finishing games, then play 1.05 until the final version comes out.

Rune

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Guest rune]

Bif,

I understand, and if you read the readme that comes with the betas, the fixes are posted. However, if you think you are wasting your time testing and not completeing a game, then don't test is all I am saying.

Got some scenarios will send ya and tom_w [another thread]. Hopefully these will keep both of you busy over the holidays. Save the majority for 2 player double blind tcp/ip games, but A Matter of Honor, and Battle of the Bugle are both great solo games. There is another historical battle I did, but it won't be released until after it is used it a tourney.

Have a good holiday!

Rune

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Biff:

Let's say I turned in a bug with the errorlog.txt, etc... Let's say they come out with a new beta. If the docs state they think they have fixed the problem causing that error code then I will try the game otherwise I will assume they haven't fixed the bug I turned in and will have wasted my time if I hit the same bug in the new beta.

All I'm asking for is that the developers include which error code bugs are fixed in a particular beta.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Oddball_E8]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Oddball_E8:

well the games that i play are the size of 500 points (since im a lazy bastard and never change the settings from the standard settings) and i am gettnig no stugs or anyghing. i did get a marder once now that i think back... it was the first fight after the new patch so thats why i didnt count it but still... there should be a bit more guns... heck i havent even gotten some decent at guns... mostly (with some exceptions) i get 75mm inf guns and 20mm flak... not exactly top-notch at guns if you get my drift... although it is great fun watching a 150mm take out a tank... KABOOM!!!!!!!!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

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Wof, wof, wof, wof... Thats my other dog imitation.

[Vanir]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Degrees of Frost:

As to point 2 :- Were tank crews trained to go oblique against individual enemy tanks ?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have no idea.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>In engagments at shorter ranges (500-700m), that are so prevalent in CM, would that constitute a sound tactic against enemy tanks operating in platoon ?.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Obviously, if there are several tanks firing at you from different directions, obliqueness will not save you. But in that case you will likely be in some trouble whatever you do so the best thing to do then would be to bug out fast.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Wouldn't the TC want to get the frontal armour facing the first enemy tank spotted and assume it had other tanks accompanying it ?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tough to assume where these other tanks might appear. If you go oblique to the first one the second may appear so as to be directly in front of you. Or there may be no other tanks at all. Personally, I would prefer the TacAI leave the assuming to the player.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>By going oblique wouldn't the TC be then presenting side armour to other tanks in the enemy platoon ?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was assuming a single target when I made my suggestion. In the case of multiple targets I would suggest the TacAI split the difference of the distance between the 2 targets farthest from each other and point the hull there. This should make it oblique to all incoming fire and would not expose the sides unless some of the incoming fire was from 2 widely different directions. But as I said above, in that type of situation you are basically screwed, oblique or not oblique, anyway.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I imagine if the TacAI was programmed to go oblique this "quirk/feature" of the TacAI would be used/abused to set up flank shots, much more easily than at present, by using one tank engage from front on to turn the target tank oblique and then a second at an angle to get a shot off at the flank.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is already a viable tactic that good players use all the time. I don't see how going oblique by 20-30 degrees makes you significantly more vulnerable to this.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>It would be nice to be able to order a tank oblique - a "rotate and freeze order" or something .....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As I was saying....

About the Panther at 30 thing... Obviously you must vary the angle from vehicle to vehicle. 30 degrees may be too much for a Panther, but just right for a Tiger. 20 would do fine for a Panther. Maybe it would be simpler to make it 20 degrees for all vehicles, just to be safe.

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You mean my Java coded Real Time Bar Fight Simulator Madmatt Mission: Beyond BiteMe ISN'T going to be published?!?

Madmatt

[This message has been edited by Vanir (edited 12-20-2000).]

[Lee]

Steve already addressed this issue a long time ago. The conclusion

was that only heavy german tanks might use this (tiger +), as they

were the only ones that likely had this as part of special training with

their heavy tanks. I think it was also to be tied to quality of the crew.

With conscript or green crews not doing it at all, and perhaps regular or better

ones using the technique, with the chances of using it going up with skill.

Elite crews would be very likely to use it, for example. This was the

general idea. But it hasn't been implemented yet.

[Vanir]

Thanks for the info Lee. That's not all I was hoping for, but it's better than nothing. Let's hope they haven't forgotten about it. Or run out of time.

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You mean my Java coded Real Time Bar Fight Simulator Madmatt Mission: Beyond BiteMe ISN'T going to be published?!?

Madmatt

[rwcanuck]

Great work guys!

One thing though, I never have seen any tanks bog on dry terrain or on pavements in V1.05. Did this bug just appear into the Public Beta releases?

[Degrees of Frost]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Vanir:

Quote DoF/me "I imagine if the TacAI was programmed to go oblique this "quirk/feature" of the TacAI would be used/abused to set up flank shots, much more easily than at present, by using one tank engage from front on to turn the target tank oblique and then a second at an angle to get a shot off at the flank."

This is already a viable tactic that good players use all the time. I don't see how going oblique by 20-30 degrees makes you significantly more vulnerable.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It would be VERY range dependent - but again at the relatively short engagement ranges in CM I would argue that it would probably make your armour more vulnerable to this mode of attack.

I agree that it is a sound tactic at present. But by letting the TacAI make the decision to go oblique it would allow the required "angle of approach" (to ensure a good flank shot opportunity) between the two attacking tanks much less, making the maneauver more easy to carry out succesfully than at present

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Vanir: