Woman Soldiers in CMBS; Woman being drafted

[cool breeze]

Hey so I um wanted to ask about this kind of totally off topic question, and i was thinking about putting it in the general forum where few would see it when I realized I could just MAKE it on topic. 

The topic being, maybe we should have woman soldiers in CMBS. 

 

Ok, but the real issue is more a IRL one.  When I went to visit family this winter my uncle said something about thinking woman should be draft eligible. I had no idea that this was a thing people talked about, and was frankly shocked and said something, and he's like, basically, "how dare you not think woman should be drafted too, you must be a bigot who voted for Trump."  I lied and said "i didnt vote for Trump"  in a voice that I thought gave away that it was a lie so it didn't really count as one .  Anywho we talked about it a little more and he got mad and we dropped it, I brought it up days later and he got mad immediately and that was it. But since then its come up a few more times with other people, apparently its a pretty common view.  I was chatting with this feminist on tinder and it came up just a couple days ago and then she "unliked" me, lol.  When did this happen?  Anyone here have any insight into the phenomenon?  The one pro-woman-being-drafted comment I got that I liked was " yeah men and woman should both be draft eligible, draft age 18 to 71." Cracked me up.

Edited May 11, 2017 by cool breeze

[sburke]

You voted for Trump?!  I unfriend you!  Lol kidding.  

2 seperate issues I think. The reality is women are moving into combat roles and more and more you will see a change in gender in the military. If there is a draft then obviously they would have to be included.  

In terms of CMBS though, it is a specific theoretical war in a theoretical time frame that is already here and women in combat roles is still limited. Not worth BF doing the model frames to try and represent them as distinctive units. And then I don't have to see some bozo decide nude women needs to be a mod for CM....and it would happen. 

[Michael Emrys]

I could point out that in Israel women have been drafted into the army from day 1. Not in combat roles though.

Michael

[cool breeze]

Obviously they'd have to be included?  Why is that?  Wouldn't they have to change the draft law rule for that or somefink?  I see the draft as a super desperate situation last resort kind of thing, not like a Vietnam War enabling kind of thing.  And if the USA is in the sort of super desperate situation some how, teenage and a little older draftee boys are hard enough to turn into infantry.  We don't need to be sending a few weeks teaching 'em how to throw half as far as the average dude. I imagine that if things ever got so bad we needed to draft again it would be at the point of needing to think about maybe repopulating, good to have the wombs home safe. 

 

But if you were gonna do it here's my thought on it. 

Girl battalions and guy battalions.  The regular girls are front line trench fighters, behind them is a reserve of men soldiers that will come to their rescue that much more bravely. 

That's for the normal girls who can't fight good.

The natural born killer girls go in the special lady bad ass assault battalions.   They target male defender groups, and wear their hair long and down, blowing in the breeze.  Helmets of course and armour but no face covering.  They attack along with loud speakers that tell the enemy in a loud but intimate and sexy voice that they arn't trying to kill them but make peace after a long war and sex em up.  The male defenders hesitate when they see the flowing hair and get shot between the eyes.

Edited May 11, 2017 by cool breeze

[QuiGon]

Now you're beeing sarcastic. If you like to discuss this matter in a serious way I would request you to keep it serious.

 

On subject:

We in the western world strive towards equality between men and women, in accordance with human rights. Drafting not just men, but also women is just a logical step as with the opening of the military for women there is no real reason why they should not be drafted as well. The time where men and women had different roles (work/household) are a thing of the past in most parts of Europe and North America. So, enough of the theory, let's look at some examples, because there are already some countries that draft women:

Israel: AFAIK Israel was the first (western) country to introduce conscription for women. IIRC they serve not as long as men (2 instead of 3 years I think?) and get only drafted into specific (all female?) units, but that includes combat units as well.

Norway: Norway was the first european country to introduce female conscription a couple of years ago. There are no all female units, nor are there units that don't allow women. In 2014 they even went even further and started an experiment where they turned an air defense bataillion into a 50/50 male/female unit and even allowed gender mixed bedrooms. It apparently went pretty well. You can read up on it here: https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/norway/2017-01-19/norways-radical-military-experiment

Sweden: Sweden abolished conscription somewhere in the 2000s, but reintroduced it about 2 years ago, but this time it also included women.

I know there has been various forms of female conscription in some communist countries, dating back as far as the 2nd world war, but I don't know enough about that to elaborate.

So, as you can see, it is already happening and I've heard nothing bad about it. It's a step to equality and honestly, I don't see any reason why this should be something bad if women are allowed to the military anyways.

Edited May 12, 2017 by QuiGon

[Michael Emrys]

15 hours ago, cool breeze said:

I see the draft as a super desperate situation last resort kind of thing, not like a Vietnam War enabling kind of thing.

The idea behind the draft is not just about sending teenagers to the front, but to provide a reservoir of trained reservists who can be called up in time of war or other national emergency. In the US the draft was abolished in the 1970s because it became intensely unpopular and therefore politically untenable during and after the Vietnam war. Instead, the Army became a professional force with its personnel staying in for multiple enlistments for a variety of reasons, often having to do with the difficulty of finding other employment in the job market. As long as the country was not involved in large scale or long term military engagements, this system worked fairly well. But with the long term commitments of the last two decades, finding enough volunteer recruits has become more problematical. There have also been serious questions raised in some quarters over how representative professional soldiers are of the society they are defending, compared to the "citizen soldier" draftees of earlier eras.

Michael

[cool breeze]

Thanks for the feed back!  I mighta been a little sarcastic but it certainly isn't entirely sarcasm  While I think it is wonderful woman are fulfilling all sorts of jobs that used to be the province of men, I think the draft is quite different from the free ecomomy.  Those woman work those jobs because they chose to, not because they are force to do it or be a criminal.  All the comments about conscription are interesting and on topic but they arn't what Im talking about.  We have draft not conscription.  I'd be fine with conscription and think that should be for both sexes, but our draft is about things like ww2 and the civil war and what have you.

 

The most basic real argument I have against woman being drafted is I don't think some 40-50 year old man should be protected by the state by the state sending the police to punish the young girls who won't go die for the old man just because the government picked em for it.

Edited May 12, 2017 by cool breeze

[cool breeze]

 

4 hours ago, QuiGon said:

So, as you can see, it is already happening and I've heard nothing bad about it. It's a step to equality and honestly, I don't see any reason why this should be something bad if women are allowed to the military anyways.

Its not about them being allowed into the military i'ts about them being forced into the military in order to fight our most desperate engagements for us.

[cool breeze]

Bad humor I know.

From a feminist perspective ( I imagine )

(white) male politicians change daft law to include teenage and 20's girls in the draft.  (White) male police sent to make the girls go to the war the white men started against the oppressed minorities including woman. 

 

Ok that was sarcastic, but I do find it interesting how the same feminists who go on about the oppressive white man patriarchy all the time also think woman should get swept up in his wars.

[MikeyD]

From a practical game viewpoint, they simply can't afford to have soldier models of different heights and different proportions. Because each body type would have to be reanimated so all the weapons fit their hands and their movements make sense. There's no women in the game for the same reason there's no 5 ft 2 soldiers or 6 ft 4 soldiers. Not meant to be disrespectful of short fat people or tall skinny people or woman serving in the armed forces. This is a small company with a finite budget.

[QuiGon]

@cool breeze Alright, I missunderstood what you meant then. I thought draft = conscription, but as I just learned it's not

But now that makes me wonder: Who is planning to draft women? I know conscription for women is a topic, at least in some countries, but I've never seen debates about women beeing drafted?

[cool breeze]

I get ya   I'm honestly not sure about the technical definitions that's just how I see it.  Conscription just being a civil service thing everyone does, vs the draft is like an emergency death lottery into the meat grinder. 

I don't know of any plans to make it happen, and I haven't heard about it at all in public debate, and I'm 31 and follow the news and am in liberal well informed circles, so I'd have thought I'd have heard of it sooner if it were a thing.  But apparently it is a thing as I have been discovering lately, and the people who believe it think any one who thinks otherwise is crazy and way behind the times. 

[cool breeze]

And MikeyD... I may have known that all along

[exsonic01]

Maybe one might develop a skin mod for female soldiers or crews? I really wish to see Kieme's work again.... What happened to him? 

Edited May 12, 2017 by exsonic01

[A Canadian Cat]

On 2017-5-11 at 7:15 PM, cool breeze said:

We don't need to be sending a few weeks teaching 'em how to throw half as far as the average dude.

LOL my daughter would have some choice words for you Boys in her gym class were always annoyed with how frequently she out shot, out ran and out kicked their asses. 

 

On 2017-5-11 at 7:15 PM, cool breeze said:

I imagine that if things ever got so bad we needed to draft again it would be at the point of needing to think about maybe repopulating, good to have the wombs home safe. 

Yeah those of us at home are not likely to be safe if things are that bad.

 

21 hours ago, MikeyD said:

There's no women in the game for the same reason there's no 5 ft 2 soldiers or 6 ft 4 soldiers. Not meant to be disrespectful of short fat people or tall skinny people or woman serving in the armed forces. This is a small company with a finite budget.

Yep, as above and @sburke said that was the explanation I got when I first brought this up.

 

One final though. Once I had kids I looked at armed conflict and asked my self "would I want my son or daughter to fight and risk thier life for this". I quickly learned that the number of conflicts I thought were actually worth it dropped a lot and I also learned that there really wasn't a different answer it I considered my daughter fighting or my son.

[cool breeze]

1 hour ago, IanL said:

LOL my daughter would have some choice words for you Boys in her gym class were always annoyed with how frequently she out shot, out ran and out kicked their asses. 

Of course some girls can throw better than me.  They should probably be volunteering if we have a draft. 

 

1 hour ago, IanL said:

Yeah those of us at home are not likely to be safe if things are that bad.
@sburke

 

Not fully safe but certainly a lot safer than being a front line combat soldier.  I think a future war could get pretty freaken gnarly bad without going strategic nuclear armageddon.  And of course you don't want either of your kids drafted.  I hope we never have to do another draft.  But it should stay an option for the survival of the society; and if that's the reason for it, that's what it should be geared towards.

[cool breeze]

Personally I'd have draft dodged the Vietnam War, but I'd  have volunteered for WW2.  I think the same goes for enough of the woman who we'd really want fighting the war.

Also staying at home doesn't necessarily mean staying in ones suburban wood house.  Heading to the hills is a good way to avoid nukes, and bomb shelters keep a populace fairly safe.  The reason we didn't build a lot of bomb shelters during the cold war is MAD. 

Edited May 13, 2017 by cool breeze

[sburke]

I am beginning to understand why you were unfriended if the above series of comments were any indication of how you carried on that conversation with your feminist ex-friend.

Regarding women in combat- you have seen the articles on Kurdish female units I assume?  Rather get into this dead end hypothetical stereotyping what women might actually contribute, why not look at the real world or better yet let's just watch Ripley in Alien movies kick monster creature butt!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women's_Protection_Units

[cool breeze]

Right in my super sexist sounding example of how I'd use a both sex draftee army I made it perfectly clear I think woman can be top tier killers.  Just like some woman are good UFC fighters.  A few.  But the exception does not make the rule, and we have all been to high school and met average teenage girls.  She wasnt my friend just some rando girl who called herself "hella feminist" on her profile, so I had to check if it was ok that I was a libertarian before continuing

 

I see nothing about the badass Kurd fighting woman being draftees so it totally missed my point.

Edited May 13, 2017 by cool breeze

[MikeyD]

Are you really comparing serving in the military to being a UFC fighter? So what is the National Park Service like, the World Wrestling Federation?

[cool breeze]

Hand to hand combat does come up in war sometimes.  The UFC comment is about the average level of killer instinct among the sexes.  Most of the UFC girl fighters fight like girls.  Its been a long time since I followed UFC, but when near the end of it a girl named Cyborg came along, she had the killer instinct and smashed on all the girls who were fighting like girls.  Since then I heard shes been de-throned and some other bad ass girls showed her up or something, but whatever your just gonna think I'm sexist.  I don't think its sexist to think evolution or god granted the sexes different genes that give them different strengths and weaknesses, and in some rare cases different rolls (pregnancy)(arguably being drafted).  I'm all about equal rights.  I think its all about the individual and individuals need to be judges by the contents of the character and their actions not their looks or group.  But the draft isn't a right, and there is no reason to lose a war or be barely able to recover population after it just to be politically correct.

[sburke]

3 minutes ago, MikeyD said:

Are you really comparing serving in the military to being a UFC fighter? So what is the National Park Service like, the World Wrestling Federation?

LOL let it go Mikey....Women in CMBS is one I think we can answer- no BFC is not going to be interested.  It adds nothing for the game itself, is out of timeline and is just work to no end.

Women in the military is something we will have to see unfold. The US doesn't even enforce draft registration though it may end up causing penalties if you apply for certain federal programs.  The Senate considered requiring women to register, but dropped it.  Neither party supports conscription so the whole subject is kind of a non starter.  It is more one of those conversations you start that really has no point other than to get you unfriended by women you met on the internet that you apparently intended to provoke.  Too bad cause I know hella feminist and she is really cool, has the best beer selection, killer weed and can bbq like nobody's business.  On top of that she is a tax whiz, saves me thousands every year, is a kick ass contractor - added a wing on my house for next to nothing and stellar work... and oh yeah is a fantastic car mechanic so I never have to pay for auto work.  Just sayin....

[Michael Emrys]

7 minutes ago, sburke said:

Too bad cause I know hella feminist and she is really cool, has the best beer selection, killer weed and can bbq like nobody's business.  On top of that she is a tax whiz, saves me thousands every year, is a kick ass contractor - added a wing on my house for next to nothing and stellar work... and oh yeah is a fantastic car mechanic so I never have to pay for auto work.  Just sayin....

You wouldn't happen to be married to this lady, would you?

Michael

[cool breeze]

Yeah it does apply penalties, that I have honest been slightly affected by.  I never did my draft paperwork because I was gonna volunteer if it was a good war and avoid it if not.  But that kept me for getting some student loans and being able to get a job as a postman.  Honestly we might really be talking about the same chick, although Id have thought her a bit young for you   Her profile said something about being a published erotica author.  She was kinda far away tho so I wasnt playing it too careful.  definately didnt puposely provoke her particularly, it all came about pretty organically.  Her family story led to mine so she was like "wait what?!  you dont think woman should be drafted?!"  so then I um kept it real with her a little on the subject.  A little more gently than here.  The real kicker was she called me wrong so I called her wrong back lel. 

[sburke]

5 minutes ago, Michael Emrys said:

You wouldn't happen to be married to this lady, would you?

Michael

she turned me down - said something to the effect that maintaining my genes in the pool was not a good benefit for survival of the species. I didn't have the killer instinct of a UFC fighter.   I think it was the cap.  @PanzerMikeyou bastard.

Edited May 13, 2017 by sburke