INTO THE GREEN (FOR REAL THIS TIME)

[Erwin]

Am doing the set-up and am confused by which units go in which force per the briefing. 

Can't find any "JTAC" unit.  There is an air controller that needs to go with the "Assault Group", but where is the JTAC that stays with the "Support Group"?  There is a TAC that goes with the Assault Group but also a 2nd TAC supposed to go with the Support group, but I cannot find any 2nd TAC.

Where is 1 Irish OMLT that goes in Support Group? 

BTW:  Have never understood the purpose of a "Support Group" per Brit SOP?  Why is this group separate from the "Assault Group"?  Wasn't sure if they are supposed to stay in the base, or if accompanying the assault force, why aren't they simply part of the assault force?

Thanks...

[Combatintman]

Ok - probably my bad as the JTACs aren't named as such - they are the units that are called Tactical Air Controller or similar. 1 R IRISH OMLT will be named as such or maybe called 'Mentor Team'.

The bits that are recommended to stay in the base are those labelled FOB Alma Group and CP Jundi Group. Don't get hung up about the assault and support group verbiage - but when you look at the TASKORG it is pretty obvious that the bits named Assault Group are more suited to assaulting than the bits named support group. Bottom line is that if it is a dismounted element that is not in or on a building in FOB Alma, it is designed to go out of the door one of the key phrases being ..

'The patrol is now formed up on the HLS in FOB Alma and ready to depart on task pending final orders and ammunition issue'.

[Erwin]

Yes, Mentor Team - I was wondering what that was about.  What does "Mentor Team" or "OMLT" stand for?

And yes, it's easier to set aside the units that will stay in the bases and then one can be confident that everyone else can go on the patrol. 

With the Brits, I have never understood why there are separate "Support Groups".   Eg: Maybe I got this wrong but it seemed like the recon team is part of "Support".  However, the Company CO is in Assault Group.  The long range Javelin teams and vulnerable jeeps are in Assault when you would think they would be in the rear with Support.  Both Assault and Support groups have CO's and FO's.  The units currently in Support don't seem less capable than the ones in Assault. 

Been confused about this Brit SOP ever since the Brit module came out all those years ago!  Would love to get a definitive description of what and why certain units are in Support or Assault.

Also, in your scenario it's unclear why any Engineer units stay in the fort when they would seem to be much more useful in the Assault role.  But, presumably that is what the Brits did historically?  Do the engineers that stay in the fort function as a reserve?  Or, should one permanently leave them in the base?

 

[Combatintman]

Ok ...

The groupings are just because they are ... when I did the scenario design/mission analysis, the tasks in big handfuls are

1. Clear the compounds

2. Protect the FOB and CP

So to do that you have to allocate troops - or as the British Army says 'troops to task'.

When you look at what is there, it then becomes a case of deciding who is best at what and let's not forget that it is only the infantry that has the mission of closing with and killing the enemy so while engineers are useful for blowing holes in compounds and finding IEDs, when you are short of resources they can be usefully employed guarding the FOB or 'sangar bashing' as soldiers call it.

Going back to the infantry elements you will see that you have the Paras who are elite infantry (I can't remember what experience rating I gave them but it would be at the upper end of the scale) and the ANA who are less well trained, lack body armour and are accompanied by their OMLT (Operational Mentoring and Liaison Team) from the R IRISH. So numbers-wise they may look similar, capability-wise they are streets apart. It therefore makes sense to give them a more stand-off role (aka support) hence the label. Under Mission Command it is up to you how you employ them and there are plenty of options - such as a base of fire or to screen or guard a flank or (not advised) reconnaissance.

With regard to the WMIKs - yes they are vulnerable and so of course they won't close with the enemy unless you are a worse player than I am but the commander that they are grouped under will know how to employ them and while his grouping might be called 'Assault Group' that doesn't mean that every element is physically going to assault.

With regard to the 'Assault' and 'Support labels - just strip them away. If you do this, what you have is a B Coy 2 PARA group (Assault) and an ANA Group (Support). The Assault group has been optimised by giving it the ATK team (to blast holes in walls) and an engineer section for ostensibly the same reason.

WRT groupings as a whole, while there are some generic groupings that people will use as a handrail when doing planning, ultimately your groupings will be decided by the planning process which will generate your troops to task or TASKORG. For more information on this process read my planning thread in CMRT here:

 

[Erwin]

Thanks, that is helpful.  Will read your planning thread for more info. 

My additional comment is that you'd think that the Javelin teams would be in Support as they have long range weapons. 

If you hadn't given such a detailed briefing re what units should do what, my proposed plan would be:

1) Leave two 2-man Javelin teams at the base for long range support. 

2) The other two 2-man Jav teams would go with the assault force (hanging back a bit with the ANA Support group and CO's as bodyguards). 

3) Use drivers from the unarmed jeeps to put 3 or 4 in each WMIK and move em out of the fort so the MG's can be used long range from (hopefully) safe positions around the fort, and still have seats available should one need the extra Javelins (or other teams) left at the fort to get quickly to the front lines.

Not sure why CO's, FO's and snipers are distributed between both Assault and Support groups.  One would think they would all go in Support - to be brought up and used when needed.

There is only one recon team that is part of the Engineer element IIRC.  If I am reading your instructions correctly, the recon team is supposed to go in Support.  But, one would think it would be in front with Assault(?)

I want to stick with your suggested set-up as you point out that will create max enjoyment.

My goal here is to have a better understanding as to why you want the player to distribute the units in the way you lay out.  I understand having the weak ANA in Support.  Thanks to your comments above, I now understand why in RL one would leave the OMLT unit (and anything that is called "Mentor" I presume) with the ANA.  But, the other choices are counter-intuitive (to me) in a RL situation. 

Am asking these questions to get a better understanding of the Brit logic that may help me in other missions using Brits.  Am assuming that there are good reasons for having particular units in Assault and Support groups.  I just don't understand is all.

 

 

[Erwin]

Was doing great with only 3 casualties and elected to get the convoy on the map safely bg4 assaulting the "village" objective.  Didn't seem to be enuff smoke to shield the assault troops from both flanks.  I thought I had done a lot of damage to the buildings and occupants with arty, Javelins and STGM's, but defenders were in fine shape and knocked out almost 20 guys.       Have a foothold now, and hopefully can assault the rest of the buildings with far less casualties if any.

Otherwise a great scenario...  Enjoying it.  Hope I can still pull off a TV.

 

 

[Combatintman]

@Erwinare you talking about the same mission?  There is no convoy in this one. Here is the actual mission thread:

 

[borg]

Lol 

[Erwin]

Aw man...  I set up Into The Green, and then noticed I hadn't completed Mullah Fayyad, so started on that while still thinking "Into The Green".  Brain clearly suffering from desert rot.  So, so sad...

Into The Green is next, then Heart of Darkness, and then UK Helluva Takeover...  all superb I know...

And BTW:  Any answers to my questions above re Assault vs Support groups? 

Edited March 30, 2017 by Erwin

[Combatintman]

3 hours ago, Erwin said:

Aw man...  I set up Into The Green, and then noticed I hadn't completed Mullah Fayyad, so started on that while still thinking "Into The Green".  Brain clearly suffering from desert rot.  So, so sad...

Into The Green is next, then Heart of Darkness, and then UK Helluva Takeover...  all superb I know...

And BTW:  Any answers to my questions above re Assault vs Support groups? 

Already explained in the context of the mission, they are terms that I have applied for the purposes of the mission. However if you are referring to the Brit TO&E then the following may be useful ...

If you select any British infantry battalion in CMSF you will see elements labelled as 'Manoeuvre Support Company' which used to be known simply as 'Support Company'.  This company is not that different to what in US and many other TO&Es is called Heavy Weapons Company. In the British Army of the time, Manoeuvre Support Company comprised:

Reconnaissance Platoon

Assault Pioneer Platoon

Sniper Platoon

Machine Gun Platoon

Anti-Tank Platoon

Mortar Platoon

In normal usage most of these elements would be Task-organised to Companies within the Battlegroup depending on mission and task (the planning and TASKORG process that I have previously referred to) so it would be rare to see the company operate in its own right and with the exception of the Reconnaissance Platoon, rare to see the platoons operate in their own right. To that end, when the TO&E was put together, Steve parcelled out the various bits of Manoeuvre Support Company equally across all three rifle companies in the battalion in the spirit of replicating standard practice leaving only rump elements of the Manoeuvre Support Company as a single element.

[Erwin]

Ok thanks... that explains things more.  I guess I am being too literal in my understanding of the descriptions.

Based on what you said, would you say that this definition works:

"SUPPORT refers to specialized units that are brought into action for the specific purpose of supporting the ASSAULT group when it encounters an obstacle that it needs help with.  But after overcoming the obstacle, the SUPPORT element is taken out of danger while the ASSAULT group moves onwards."

Edited March 30, 2017 by Erwin

[Combatintman]

The first sentence yes - I'm not saying the second sentence is wrong but it is slightly nugatory.

Edited March 30, 2017 by Combatintman

[Erwin]

Had to Google nugatory: worthless, unimportant, inconsequential, valueless, trifling, trivial, insignificant, meaningless

So the statement is not wrong, but slightly... huh?     You speak in riddles grasshopper.  (Am also not a fan of that stooped green StarWars character whatsitsname...)

I figured that after overcoming the obstacle, the Support element is put back in reserve again.  Otherwise wouldn't it simply become part of the Assault Group?  Am just trying to create a SOP for myself when playing the Brits in particular. 

[Sgt.Squarehead]

I'm guessing it may mean that once contact is made the support element is likely to remain 'at hand', perhaps not directly in the front line, but close enough to intervene with minimal delay.....I could well be 100% wrong though. 

[Erwin]

I get that.  But, on most CM2 maps which are relatively small, support elements are always going to be "close enough to intervene with minimal delay".  

Am simply trying to avoid the situation that tends to happen in scenarios where one puts all units are in the line all the time, cos the player knows where the map edges/flanks are, knows how long the mission is, can calculate how much ammo he can afford to burn thru etc. and generally doesn't have to keep a reserve. 

Scenarios and campaign missions where you have to end with a % of ammo, men and equipment in good enuff shape to continue operations are the best imo. 

Loved the huge battles possible in CM1 where not only is the map huge, but one can have a regiment or more per side, so one experiences an quasi-operational level, and it becomes prudent and realistic to keep a reserve.

 

[Sgt.Squarehead]

Balancing campaign scripts will be a whole new level of learning for me.....I know how they work, but structuring them to get a satisfactory and winnable campaign is going to take some practice I suspect.

Edited March 31, 2017 by Sgt.Squarehead

[Erwin]

That's ok.  Am very willing to volunteer you to spend the next year figuring it out, and I have total confidence in you.  

[Erwin]

Copied from main CMSF forum:

Captured final objective with around 30 mins to go.  CF'd with 3 WIA and 1 KIA with 3 vehicles KO'd.  The three vehicles and one or two of the men were a result of the uncon HE barrages into the base in the first few turns of the scenario..  So, nothing I could have done about that.  I was pleased that I only lost 2 guys to a good uncon ambush in the ditches.

Got a Major Victory.  Seems like I didn't kill enuff uncon to get a Total Victory.  The problem is that the player has no incentive to go hunt more uncon down.  To "encourage" the player to do more, there either should be more VL's to touch, or the VL's need larger "green" areas that need to be captured rather than just touched. 

After CF I saw many IED's but apparently I had no problem spotting and killing the triggermen and I don't think any IED's were triggered.  The game end stats said that there were something like 80 enemy left ok.  But, I only counted about 40 on the map.  So maybe more were going to attack later(?).

While the first half of the scenario is xnt and a lot of fun, nothing seemed to happen in the 2nd half of the mission.  Between 1 hour 10 minutes to go and the end (28 mins to go) when I CF'd I didn't see any enemy and there were no more ambushes - just some desultory and poorly aimed arty spotting shots that never came close to the troops.  Blasting into the VL's resulted in more enemy casualties as each building was garrisoned by uncon - but that was easy compared to "Green 9". 

The other disappointment with the 2nd half of the scenario was the enemy motorized technical attack at the 30 minutes to go mark.  They were mostly wiped out by the fort garrisons before I even realized there was an attack going on at the other end of the map! 

I would recommend this scenario to new players as one has more than enuff force and arty to accomplish the mission even if one takes far more casualties than I did.  Also, this scenario seems very replayable due to the large maze-like complex of ditches and many buildings scattered around.  New players may not achieve a good victory, but they will have fun and get a chance to experiment with tactics and the interplay of air power and arty.