Polish Army Video

[LUCASWILLEN05]

Hoping this will help inspire the developers to include the Polish army! 

 

[John Kettler]

LUCASWILLEN05,

Nice vid. Better yet, no music! Poland appears to have an amalgam of COMBLOC and western weapons. In some cases, late model AKs, the former are sporting US ACOGs. I saw flat out US Woodland Pattern and something which looks like it but much more subdued. The single biggest thing I noticed is the enormous numbers of smoke grenade lauchers on those T-72 type tanks. When Poland comes in, it might be wise to allow several more salvos than is usual in CMBS. Mind, this presumes that's how the Poles actually use them. 

Regards,

John Kettler

[Ivanov]

1 hour ago, John Kettler said:

LUCASWILLEN05,

Nice vid. Better yet, no music! Poland appears to have an amalgam of COMBLOC and western weapons. In some cases, late model AKs, the former are sporting US ACOGs. I saw flat out US Woodland Pattern and something which looks like it but much more subdued. The single biggest thing I noticed is the enormous numbers of smoke grenade lauchers on those T-72 type tanks. When Poland comes in, it might be wise to allow several more salvos than is usual in CMBS. Mind, this presumes that's how the Poles actually use them. 

Regards,

John Kettler

The riffle is called Beryl:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FB_Beryl

The camo patter is wz.93 Pantera:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wz._93_Pantera

Note that both are due to be replaced. A new Polish riffle:

http://www.military-today.com/firearms/msbs.htm

And a new camo pattern:

[Erwin]

Doesn't everyone in Europe fight in more or less the same type of terrain.  Amazed at the uniform variety.  It's like a fashion show...

And they are still having to hit their helmets with the magazine like they're back in Vietnam.  Really???

Around 1:10 they don't seem to have grasped the concept of reverse slope defense.  Ah, well they're Polish... 

(I have Polish dad so can say these things btw.)

Edited February 15, 2017 by Erwin

[Ivanov]

52 minutes ago, Erwin said:

Doesn't everyone in Europe fight in more or less the same type of terrain.  Amazed at the uniform variety.  It's like a fashion show...

What do you mean by that? There's no unified European army and every country is designing camo patters by itself. Apart from the practical issues, the uniform shows the national identity - I just can't imagine for example Polish army wearing the same uniforms as the Germans, despite of the fact that they are allies.

Re the video: it's a compilation of few videos actually, they were all staged spectacles for the press - I wouldn't draw any conclusions about the tactics from it. It's like those infamous shows for the VIP's were the team performs helicopter insertion 100 meters from a building occupied by the terrorists.

Edited February 15, 2017 by Ivanov

[Erwin]

I wuz being half humorous. I had a serious point however, that by now have we not researched the very best camo?  Isn't that more important than depicting "national identity" like we're fighting a Napoleonic war with colorful national costumes/uniforms??  One would have thought that all camo would be very similar by now.

[A Canadian Cat]

38 minutes ago, Erwin said:

I wuz being half humorous.

@Erwin you need to throw in some simile faces: or

[Erwin]

But then, people might complain that they didn't get that there is a serious question in there (about the camo). 

Understanding exactly which emoticon or serious of Emoticons are appropriate can be very complex to learn.  But, just for you: 

[Ivanov]

2 hours ago, Erwin said:

I wuz being half humorous. I had a serious point however, that by now have we not researched the very best camo?  Isn't that more important than depicting "national identity" like we're fighting a Napoleonic war with colorful national costumes/uniforms??  One would have thought that all camo would be very similar by now.

I think if you look at the camo patters, it's a neverending work in progress, just like with weapon systems in general. Look at the failed US odyssey with the UCP. Tons of money invested in a pattern that is universal, only because it blends universally bad regardless the surrounding terrain. Why to invest in something that doesn't work and is worst that the earlier patterns? Designing a camo pattern is a complex task and it incorporates the latest technological and scientific methods, so I guess there's no way in coming up with a universal pattern for all the conditions.

Edited February 15, 2017 by Ivanov

[Erwin]

"... there's no way in coming up with a universal pattern for all the conditions."

I appreciate that.  But, I have been commenting that if you are in the same or similar terrain, one would think that there would be an ideal camo design and that everyone would tend to have the same or similar camo.

[A Canadian Cat]

2 hours ago, Erwin said:

Understanding exactly which emoticon or serious of Emoticons are appropriate can be very complex to learn.  But, just for you: 

Awesome thanks. That should cover me for the day.

[John Kettler]

Ivanov,

I looked up Poland's small arms last year, but I appear to have not retained the info! The wag in me feels compelled to point out how impressive the Polish soldiers are and Poland's defense budget--soldiers immune to the toxicity of the rare metal beryllium and a nation with such a big (who knew?) defense budget it can afford to arm its soldiery with such super expensive weaponry!  Did the Beryl jam up the PL-01 Stealth Tank's development?! If so, does the MSBS represent a return to fiscal sanity?
 

On a more serious note, the MSBS looks like a well thought out design, and making it ambidextrous is a wise move. Classically, this is deemed to allow a wounded man to continue the fight, but I believe the real combat utility is to minimize shooter exposure when firing around a wall, corner, etc. Must admit a certain bias, though, since I'm lefthanded!

Regards,

John Kettler

[Erwin]

Reading many of the forums here, one gets the sense that people are still trying to fight the last war with mass tanks akin to how the world entered WW1 with romantic images of horse cavalry charges. 

Also, given that when buttoned up the crew may as well be playing a computer game, that has to be the next step (as with USAF pilots predominantly flying drones these days).

Amazing that this next innovation isn't mentioned.  (You read it here first?)

[John Kettler]

Erwin,

I kind of think we've begun to address your point already. Remember this?
 

Granted, it's a wee bit underdeveloped on the gun end, but those 9M120 series Ataka ATGMs are no joke. What wouldn't be funny--to the Russians--is if someone figured out how to hack this thing in combat and turn it on its owners!  But if the articles here, here and here are right, remote operators may not even be human! Seems to me that if the likes of Elon Musk is worried about humans becoming irrelevant, saying we need to become cyborgs,  and he and Stephen Hawking are both signatories to a letter which, inter alia, expresses real concern AI could destroy humanity, it might be wise to pay attention. That said, the issue of Colossus and Guardian taking over the planet and wiping us out in a nuclear exchange is obviously way out of CMBS's scope. 
 

(Goes to his happy place and thinks about tanks and catapults.)

Regards,

John Kettler

[Ivanov]

3 hours ago, Erwin said:

(as with USAF pilots predominantly flying drones these days).

You are aware that USAF operates a little more than 250 MALE class drones ( Predator, Reaper ) and about 40 Global Hawks?

[Erwin]

You need to stay up to date, mate:

"Carlisle, commander of Air Combat Command, called the drones "One of the most valuable battlefield assets" and said that drone operations had increased fivefold since 2006, with 8,000 airmen supporting these flights."

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/03/17/politics/air-force-pilot-shortage/

"...used to be the airmen controlling drones were considered “pilot-wannabes” in the Air Force, but the Air Force is currently looking to fill 300 military jobs for drone pilots, making the position more desirable."

https://www.usmilitary.com/29254/air-force-military-jobs-drone-pilots/

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/06/us/air-force-drones-terrorism-isis.html?_r=0

https://www.airforcetimes.com/articles/air-force-offers-bonuses-up-to-175-000-for-drone-pilots

Tons more info you can Google easily.

The point is that they need a lot more pilots than aircraft.

Where I live, Uber has saturated the place with testing self-drive vehicles.  If that becomes common in the next ten years, am certain that autonomous/remote control AFV's will be very close.  As with aircraft, once you remove the life-support and AFV armor, you could build many for the same price as current AFV. And performance can increase dramatically once you remove human crew.  Also, friendly casualties will no longer be the huge issue it is today. 

And major ships like aircraft carriers can radically change once most aircraft are autonomous or remote piloted.  Just think it through.  The changes that are coming could be enormous.

 

 

[Ivanov]

There are thousands of small hand-launched, short range drones in service, but as I stated before, a little more than 250 MALE class. Could you provide a link that would state something else?

-Predator 360 built in total since 1995, used by 4 militaries

-Reaper 163 built in total, used by 3 militaries

- Global Hawk - 42 built in total

Keep in mind the operational loses too. During the bombing of Yugoslavia alone in 1999, 25 UAV's were lost.

The drones are for sure the future of the aviation, but we're talking of what will happen in 20-30 years from now. To US Air Force has already a road map regarding the UAV development.

[Ivanov]

9 hours ago, John Kettler said:

Ivanov,

I looked up Poland's small arms last year, but I appear to have not retained the info! The wag in me feels compelled to point out how impressive the Polish soldiers are and Poland's defense budget--soldiers immune to the toxicity of the rare metal beryllium and a nation with such a big (who knew?) defense budget it can afford to arm its soldiery with such super expensive weaponry!  Did the Beryl jam up the PL-01 Stealth Tank's development?! If so, does the MSBS represent a return to fiscal sanity?

I just want to remind, that the stealth tank never existed. It was a mock up designed by a computer game studio, on the CV90 chassis. As for the small arms, last month the Polish MoD signed the biggest contract for Beryls since the end of the Cold War. 70 thousands will be delivered to the newly created territorial defence units. The MSBS is supposed to be delivered to the regular army units in about two years from now, but I'm sure there'll be some delay.

[Erwin]

You seem to miss the point:  "...USAF pilots predominantly flying drones these days)."   ie:  The majority of USAF pilots these days are drone pilots.  That is accurate and easily researched and has little to do with the current actual number of drones. 

That's a clear indication of where things are going.  Next will be drone AFV's (and I predict, ships). 

No reason to waste energy debating this now.  Let's simply revisit this thread in about 10 years. 

 

[John Kettler]

Guys,

I haven't done a drone count, still less a by type breakdown, nor have counted the drone pilots, either, but I did want to note the US has officially resolved the vexed issue of medals for drone pilots directly involved in combat actions. What DoD hasn't resolved is an I suspect unforeseen issue: PTSD among drone pilots seeing combat up close and in a way the ground soldiers don't. Many times they are unable to help yet very much there, just not in body. To watch those they're trying to protect be ripped apart is tearing up the drone pilots, and they're coming unstuck because they're having an intimate experience of war not unlike that of a sniper, worsened by the altogether too common killing of innocents. There's also a simply incredible pace of operations, in a force so drained by resignations that even transport pilots have been dragooned into the not respected, second class citizen role. 

Ivanov,

I thought the Beryl was obsolete, evidently not, but I think it's great Poland has created a whopping Territorial Defense Force and is giving it brand new proven weapons, too. This probably won't make the Kremlin happy, but I'm okay with that. What else is what sounds like our National guard going to have?

Regards,

John Kettler

[Ivanov]

1 hour ago, John Kettler said:

Ivanov,

I thought the Beryl was obsolete, evidently not, but I think it's great Poland has created a whopping Territorial Defense Force and is giving it brand new proven weapons, too. This probably won't make the Kremlin happy, but I'm okay with that. What else is what sounds like our National guard going to have?

Regards,

John Kettler

John,

I wouldn't say Beryls are obsolete. And as you said they are reliable and proven, so it's rational to equip the Territorial Defense with them, especially when you need to build this force from the scratch in a short time. You are also right, that at least in theory the Territorial Defense is supposed to counter the possible hybrid threats, based on what happened in Ukraine. The MSBS will really enter the service during the next decade.