Vehicle Covered Arc Question/Enhancement

[Matt_P]

I'm not sure where the correct place to post this is so apologies in advance if it should be posted elsewhere.    I'm pretty new to the game, so I also don't know if this has been discussed previously. 

I had a situation where I had a tank that was facing enemy infantry and an enemy tank.   My assumption was that my opponent was going to rush the infantry at my tank to draw fire and then advance his tank to shoot my tank.   So, being clever, I decided to give my tank a Target Vehicle covered arc.   Not so clever it turned out as though my opponent did in fact do exactly what I though he would do, his infantry charged and then his tank came forward, but because of a small wreck the two tanks never had LOS to each other.  His infantry (Russian) waltzed right up in line of sight and spotted by the tank and proceeded to "destroy" the tank (a Panther).  Well, I'm not sure they destroyed it as Russian infantry doesn't possess anything that could actually hurt a panther, but the tank crew decided to abandon the vehicle with the Russians about 1 foot away and were of course mowed down.    Now for me, this is a bit strange on a few levels.   I'm not sure why the tank crew would abandon the tank when the safest place for them to be is in the tank.   I understand that the tank had a vehicle covered arc, but the infantry literally ran right up to the tank through the covered arc in LOS for about 50 meters and the tank didn't fire main gun or MG's at it.    Fair enough, lesson learned, don't give a tank a vehicle CA with enemy infantry about even if the enemy infantry has no way to actually harm the tank.  

But thinking about this has lead me to ask for an enhancement request to the game.   To me it would seem that a tank should ALWAYS use it's MG's to target infantry in this situation.   But really what would be cool would be if you can set CA's and target priority types for EACH weapon (or weapon group) on a tank.    So in this situation to be able to set the target priority type and covered arc of the main armament to one setting and the target priority/CA of MG's to another setting (or don't set target priority or CA at all for MG's, only the Main Armament).   This would allow a tank to reserve it's main gun usage for threats of enemy armor while using it's MG's to protect itself from enemy infantry.  

I really don't have enough experience to understand if this type of things happens a lot or if this was a 1 in a million chance of it happening as it did in this particular game.    But nonetheless it would be cool to be able to set the CA's  and target types individually of each weapon on a tank.   

 

I guess this leads me to another question as well - which is what happens in a situation where you have the Tanks covered arc set to the side for example but the tank has a bow mounted machine gun which obviously can't face the side, but only forward.  Will the tank use the BMG to fire at targets to it's front even though it's out of the Covered arc set?  Just wondering.

Anyway, thanks for looking.

Matt

Edited January 27, 2017 by Matt_P

[A Canadian Cat]

1 hour ago, Matt_P said:

I'm not sure where the correct place to post this is so apologies in advance if it should be posted elsewhere.    I'm pretty new to the game, so I also don't know if this has been discussed previously. 

Probably - but a review never hurts.

My comments on your questions are below.  Let's start with what I would recommend you do in your stated situation. In a word - nothing. The Tac AI already does a pretty good job of prioritizing targets. They will prioritize the tank above the infantry, until the infantry get close then they might switch. Which in this situation is already exactly what you want.

The only exception might be if the enemy infantry and the enemy tank are 90+ degrees apart. Then you might get frustrated if your tank turns towards the infantry and therefore is out of position to deal with the thank. In that situation it might be good to use a cover arc. Even then I would hesitate - might be better to withdraw.

Ideally you want your infantry near your tank to keep the enemy infantry away from your tank while your tank deals with the enemy tank. Then you might very well use a cover armour arc.

Regardless I would recommend circular cover arcs as much as possible and for tanks usually that means make sure they cover the entire map. You do not want an enemy tank to appear in LOS outside your cover arc. In general it is best to view cover arcs as a way to prevent units from firing. Do not think of them as a way to get units to fire.

 

1 hour ago, Matt_P said:

I had a situation where I had a tank that was facing enemy infantry and an enemy tank.   My assumption was that my opponent was going to rush the infantry at my tank to draw fire and then advance his tank to shoot my tank.   So, being clever, I decided to give my tank a Target Vehicle covered arc.   Not so clever it turned out as though my opponent did in fact do exactly what I though he would do, his infantry charged and then his tank came forward, but because of a small wreck the two tanks never had LOS to each other.  His infantry (Russian) waltzed right up in line of sight and spotted by the tank and proceeded to "destroy" the tank (a Panther).  Well, I'm not sure they destroyed it as Russian infantry doesn't possess anything that could actually hurt a panther, but the tank crew decided to abandon the vehicle with the Russians about 1 foot away and were of course mowed down.    Now for me, this is a bit strange on a few levels.   I'm not sure why the tank crew would abandon the tank when the safest place for them to be is in the tank.

So, what you witnessed was an infantry close assault on a tank. This is a bit abstracted but it covers the use of grenades, grenade bundles against tracks and engine compartments. Also the Russian infantry do possess RPG-43 anti tank grenades (but the UI does not specifically show them). In sort infantry can immobilize or destroy a tank - if they can get close enough.

 

1 hour ago, Matt_P said:

   I understand that the tank had a vehicle covered arc, but the infantry literally ran right up to the tank through the covered arc in LOS for about 50 meters and the tank didn't fire main gun or MG's at it.    Fair enough, lesson learned, don't give a tank a vehicle CA with enemy infantry about even if the enemy infantry has no way to actually harm the tank.  

Yep, lesson learned. You gave the tank orders and they followed them

 

1 hour ago, Matt_P said:

But thinking about this has lead me to ask for an enhancement request to the game.   To me it would seem that a tank should ALWAYS use it's MG's to target infantry in this situation.   But really what would be cool would be if you can set CA's and target priority types for EACH weapon (or weapon group) on a tank.   

No, if you have a tank in ambush you may actually want it to not be firing MGs at all - which could give away its position. That is what the armour cover arc is for.

 

1 hour ago, Matt_P said:

So in this situation to be able to set the target priority type and covered arc of the main armament to one setting and the target priority/CA of MG's to another setting (or don't set target priority or CA at all for MG's, only the Main Armament).   This would allow a tank to reserve it's main gun usage for threats of enemy armor while using it's MG's to protect itself from enemy infantry.  

I really don't have enough experience to understand if this type of things happens a lot or if this was a 1 in a million chance of it happening as it did in this particular game.    But nonetheless it would be cool to be able to set the CA's  and target types individually of each weapon on a tank.   

In general BFC wants to avoid adding more micro managing to the game so a per weapon cover arc feature is extremely unlikely to happen.

 

1 hour ago, Matt_P said:

I guess this leads me to another question as well - which is what happens in a situation where you have the Tanks covered arc set to the side for example but the tank has a bow mounted machine gun which obviously can't face the side, but only forward.  Will the tank use the BMG to fire at targets to it's front even though it's out of the Covered arc set?  Just wondering.

The cover arc means only shoot stuff inside this arc. So the bow MG will likely not be used much. If you create a 180degree arc then the bow gun might be able to find targets in there.

[Matt_P]

Thanks for the detailed response, it's appreciated and all that you have advised makes sense.  Unfortunately in this particular situation, the do nothing would have resulted in the tank firing on the infantry and his tank destroying (or at least getting the drop on) my tank if not for the bizarre LOS blockage.   My tank had no LOS to either at turn start and given the situation I could see what was coming as earlier in the game a somewhat similar situation came up and a tank prioritized the infantry.   Was trying to avoid the same thing happening.   Anyway appreciate your thoughts, but it still would be nice if the tank would have fired on the infantry in that situation as they got closer and closer or even better to be able to specify the target priority of the main gun.  I understand the desire to not add more micro management to the game, but really I don't think it would as no one has to use such a feature, but it would be a nice option to have.   In many cases  already in my short experience I have wanted my tanks to fire at infantry with their MG's but not with their MA or to fire simultaneously at two different targets and you can't really do that despite the tank having the capability.    I guess I'm too used to ASL and how things work there.               So while I'm at it,.  It would also be nice if you could set the turret facing on a tank without setting a covered arc.  I'm assuming circular target arcs with tanks will always keep the turret facing forward?   

 

Edited January 27, 2017 by Matt_P

[Matt_P]

As an update to this, I tried the same tactic in a different game I'm playing and got the same result.   A German Tiger had wandered too close to a building where I had a few SMG teams so with this in mind, rather than stay in the building that the Tiger was methodically pounding, I charged them at the Tiger and sure enough got the same result.  Apparently they immobilized the Tiger and then threw a bundle grenade of sorts that really isn't listed with them and killed a few crew and then the rest bailed out.   Very interesting.   Nothing to do with covered arcs, but interesting to understand better the infantry assault capabilities of infantry seemingly with no AT weaps....   My new tactic in close quarters...............

[Migo441]

I'd just like to take a moment to celebrate this example of civil and fulfilling discourse.  On the internet!

Huzzah for CMx2!

@Matt_P, yep, 30m is the danger zone for armor regarding enemy infantry.  As Ian mentioned, this is an abstracted "close assault" which encompasses a variety of potential actions that could immobilize a tank, cause the crew to bail, or outright destroy it.  It's a dire situation when, facing enemy armor, it's your best option.  But at least it's something.  In close terrain, tanks have much to fear.

 

 

[Matt_P]

So I've noticed Migo, so I've noticed re the 30m.   I actually created a scenario for the Winter Mod (will post soon in the other thread about winter scenarios, currently playtesting it with a buddy) and it takes place in a town with lots of large buildings and I'm learning that the seemingly invincible Tigers aren't really so........

Edited January 28, 2017 by Matt_P

[A Canadian Cat]

14 hours ago, Matt_P said:

...  already in my short experience I have wanted my tanks to fire at infantry with their MG's but not with their MA or to fire simultaneously at two different targets and you can't really do that despite the tank having the capability.   ...

Actually the tank crew will engage multiple targets on thier own. The issue is you cannot direct them to.

[A Canadian Cat]

10 hours ago, Matt_P said:

 Very interesting.   Nothing to do with covered arcs, but interesting to understand better the infantry assault capabilities of infantry seemingly with no AT weaps....   My new tactic in close quarters...............

Congrats on your first close assault! They are difficult to pull off because your opponent will ba activity trying to take those opportunities away, at least once they start loosing tanks.

[A Canadian Cat]

14 hours ago, Matt_P said:

 I'm assuming circular target arcs with tanks will always keep the turret facing forward?   

Correct. There is no way to direct the turret facing without a cover arc. More than that the tank will turn it's hull to the middle of the cover arc too. So the only time the turret will be directed off centre is when the tank is moving or immobilized.

[c3k]

IanL has covered most of this. But, as always, he's forgotten the power of Molotov cocktails! No, they're not listed. Infantry are assumed to have some sort of ability to affect a tank, be it a grenade bundle, Molotov cocktail, crowbar to the drive sprocket, or jumper cables from the high-tension power lines.  

If you have a tank, DO NOT get close to infantry. They will swarm and bring down your armored beast...as they could and did. (Not always, but enough so no armor went willingly near infantry.) Use other vehicles/infantry to provide flank and rear protection to your vehicle. It's a lot harder to put a grenade bundle on a tank if another tank is sitting 50m back with 3 machineguns ready to fire.

If I have a tank in a situation as you described at first (Infantry nearby and an enemy tank a little further away), I would Cover Armor towards the enemy tank and reverse away, while staying/getting out of LOS of the tank as rapidly as possible. At the end of the 50-100m reverse, I'd give a FACE command (that erases the Cover Armor and allows the TacAI to prioritize firing any target...including any infantry which may have exposed themselves.) The key is to get distance away from nearby infantry.

[A Canadian Cat]

That there is good advice. Nothing wrong with a tactical withdrawal. If @c3k says it's ok you know it must be.

[JoMac]

Yes, Matt, sound advice from above...Thou, I've never liked the 'Close Assault' Abstraction in CM as taking out Armor with Inf is alittle overrated and not as realistic as it should be.

Joe

[Matt_P]

1 hour ago, IanL said:

Correct. There is no way to direct the turret facing without a cover arc. More than that the tank will turn it's hull to the middle of the cover arc too. So the only time the turret will be directed off centre is when the tank is moving or immobilized.

Well, that's not good.   Many situations where you want the hull facing one way and the turret another...

Thanks for all the guidance folks, very useful stuff.   I'm sure the more I play, the more I'll figure out the right balance and workarounds for the various limitations.  Just need to remember that this is Combat Mission, it's not Advanced Squad Leader...... 

[Migo441]

3 hours ago, IanL said:

More than that the tank will turn it's hull to the middle of the cover arc too. So the only time the turret will be directed off centre is when the tank is moving or immobilized.

Wait a minute...  What am I missing here?  I have turrets directed off-center all the time for tanks that aren't moving and aren't immobilized.

I ran for several turns but the tank, on its own, never rotated the hull to face the center of the arc.  My claim, until someone comes along shortly to clarify/correct, is that you certainly can orient the hull and turret independently.  Now, previously, Circular Arcs were referenced and yes, in that case, I agree the turret will orient with hull (unless engaging on a different angle at a given moment, etc...)

Alas @Matt_P, we're all in agreement that you can't do what you originally wanted to do which is have the TC say, "Hull gunner, scan forward for enemy infantry!  Turret maintain orientation at 2 o'clock, scan for enemy armor!"  Sometimes it does work out that way (engage multiple targets) but, as @IanL said, only at the discretion of the TacAI.

[A Canadian Cat]

Wow. My bad. You know now that I think about it, I sure I have done that before. Sorry gang got that wrong.

[c3k]

FACE will get the hull facing in the direction ordered. The turret will align with the hull. TacAI will be free to adjust both as needed.

[Warts 'n' all]

Molotov Cocktails did feature in CM Barbarossa to Berlin. I loved 'em even if they weren't all that effective.

[Michael Emrys]

There was even a kind of mortar/MC thrower that the Soviets had for a while in late '42 I believe. Interesting study of the various improvisations that the belligerent armies fielded before satisfactory portable anti-tank weaponry became available for the infantry.

Michael