If my artillery pops a squad in a forest how the hell do I see "infantry eliminated"

[Degrees of Frost]

I am playing a PBEM at present and am having some success as Amis destroying a couple of german platoons (I saw them go in but haven't seen them come out) hiding in a great big bunch of pines with 105mm VT artillery.

As the incoming shells bang into the trees I suddenly see german bodies appearing - prone bodies labelled as eliminated. We get an airburst and then a german infantry icon keeling over.

The odd thing is I could never see the german squads (eliminated squad icons appearing greater than 75m away from the last know position of a german squad) and none of MY units have LOS to the now eliminated squad.

The squads have been eliminated by stray rounds from the 105mm dropping outside any of my units LOS.

My closest units are 400-450m away and never indicate a sound contact.

So my question is how do I know I have eliminated an enemy squad ?

Do the VT shells have little pilots inside them that radio back saying "we got them a beauty mate" ?

[This message has been edited by Degrees of Frost (edited 09-15-2000).]

[Guest Pillar]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Do the VT shells have little pilots inside them that radio back saying "we got them a beauty mate" ? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh no... he's on to us. The secret of the small upper tube and Germany's secret gerbil and hampster production plants is about to be uncovered!

[Mark IV]

Originally posted by Degrees of Frost:

I saw them go in but haven't seen them come out... the odd thing is I could never see the german squads

Odd, indeed. Needs some clarification.

Do the VT shells have little pilots inside them that radio back saying "we got them a beauty mate" ?

No. But some posts do. Why not just spell out the relevant facts and save the BS?

[Degrees of Frost]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mark IV:

Originally posted by Degrees of Frost:

I saw them go in but haven't seen them come out... the odd thing is I could never see the german squads

Odd, indeed. Needs some clarification.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK - I saw what was identified as german infantry? enter the extreme left of a bunch of pines 160m wide and 80m deep. I spotted at least a platoon I reckon (4 icons appeared) - so I shell the area I saw them enter. I figure my opponent may have got another platoon into the right of the pines unobserved.

The pines have a commanding position over a couple of VLs.

So I begin to adjust my fire, keeping a green line so its observed, from the left to the right. As shells fall on the right I see a german icon appear amongst the pines, keel over and become indentified as Infantry? eliminated. I have LOS on this now eliminated squad from 600m away, the eliminated squad is 15m into the treeline and didn't appear to be moving - the icon appears, gets to its feet and falls over. So I don't know how it was spotted but maybe it was.

It happens a second time the next turn, however this time NONE of my units has LOS to this eliminated squad which is positioned 30-40m from the edge of the pines. Again an icon appears, falls over and is identified as infantry? eliminated.

In my initial post I stated my nearest units were 400-450m away - when I measured they are 330m away but these units DO NOT have LOS to any portion of the pines.

As for the BS - I certainly didn't mean to get up anyones nose (nor did I expect to have anyone comment on it either).

[Dschugaschwili]

This has happened to me before too. As far as I can remember, it was also discussed on the forum back then. I think it's a bug, but I don't know if BTS has ever commented on that.

Dschugaschwili

[Degrees of Frost]

Well I just tried to replicate it. Set-up a whole lot of different german squads (to get different squad sizes) hidden in a pine forest. Squads were also set at different distances into the pine forest (from Amis) - at depth where they (german squads) could see out - at a depth where they couldn't.

Setup a whole lot of 105mm VT spotters and proceeded to let them rip into the hidden german squads.

NO Infantry? eliminated ICONS APPEARED during this bombardment and german squads remained hidden from the spotters view even when eliminated (and more than 70% squads were eliminated).

I guess I will have to go back and look even more carefully at the turn in my game where the Infantry? eliminated icons appeared to ensure there was no LOS (and I am sure there wasn't - but it never hurts to triple check).

My opponent assures me his guys were hiding when they bought it.

So at this stage I am CERTAINLY NOT yelling "bug, bug, bug".

And I did a search - but didn't get anything that seemed promising.

[David Aitken]

I don't have time just now to check if this has been discussed before, but I endorse the issue. If you kill a unit or knock out a vehicle, suddenly you know exactly what and where it is. Say you knew the enemy had a Jagdpanther, and by a fluke you immobilised it with artillery and it was abandoned, you would know this without being able to see it. That would be a bit unfair, wouldn't it?

David

*** Correction ***

It seems the issue is that if you have some contact with a unit, you'll know when it's KO'd, but if you have no contact you won't.

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They lost all of their equipment and had to swim in under machine gun fire. As they struggled in the water, Gardner heard somebody say, "Perhaps we're intruding, this seems to be a private beach."

[This message has been edited by David Aitken (edited 09-15-2000).]

[Degrees of Frost]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by David Aitken:

I don't have time just now to check if this has been discussed before, but I endorse the issue. If you kill a unit or knock out a vehicle, suddenly you know exactly what and where it is. Say you knew the enemy had a Jagdpanther, and by a fluke you immobilised it with artillery and it was abandoned, you would know this without being able to see it. That would be a bit unfair, wouldn't it?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes it certainly would be .....

In the particular PBEM game I am playing this information has confirmed for me that my opponent is indeed hiding a second platoon in the forest so I will be pounding it again next turn. Of course the eliminated unit could be a machinegun or panzershcrek not attached to a platoon - but I think not (but then time will tell).

I have triple checked now - not one of my units has LOS to the region where the dead Infantry? icon turns up before the bombardment (at the end of the turn previous to the one where the icon appears) or at the end of the turn during which the icon does appear.

However when I watched the turn movie it may be possible that an unbuttoned Sherman may have got a peek in the direction of the eliminated unit. But the tank commander had to have spotted a stationary (except when it got up and keeled over and when the icon actually appears i am pretty certain the Sherman does not have LOS), hidden infantry unit through 25m plus pine forest at a range of 450m - but as we can't use the LOS tool during the turn movie I don't know whether there was LOS or not.

[patboivin]

I'm not sure about this.

I am playing Cheneux now, as the U.S. (getting slaughtered).

Anyway I eliminated a German unit, but when I click on it I see

Crew?

And the status says ELIMINATED as usual.

I would like to know what I killed, esp. since I am standing over that unit now, you would think a quick glance at what weapons they had would give me a better idea of what it was.

[Henri]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Degrees of Frost:

My opponent assures me his guys were hiding when they bought it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here is what may have happened: the enemy soldiers were hiding, so you couldn't see them. As their casualties increased, they began to rout, but as soon as they got up, they were killed and fell over dead. In other words, what you saw was hidden enemy soldiers breaking out of hiding just before they were eliminated.At least that's what I would guess...

There may be another factor in that what you see is not necessarily what is there: the game shows you what your side THINKS is there given the information available. However in my experience, once a unit is shown as dead, it stays dead.

There is an outside possibility that there were TWO enbemy units where you only saw one, and the sequence of events that you saw did not all correspond to the same unit.

Henri

[Walter]

Mark IV,

What a constructive comment! That's what really helps the tone of this board! Thanks a lot for helping address the concerns of this poster.

Frost, I've noticed this as well, but never really concerned myself with it, I just assumed that the artillery shells had blown away some of the cover and that it was clear that there were dead bodies everywhere. On the tank front, I'm virtually certain that you find out what sort of tank you've destroyed until you get close enough to identify the destroyed tank.

Cheers,

Walter R. Strapps

[Daveman]

Well, squads that are "eliminated" aren't necessarily all dead... maybe the survivors are just being a little too noisy yelling out "MEDIC!!!" and you're just hearing them

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"You know our standing orders. Out of ammo become a bunker, out of commission become a pillbox, out of time... become heroes." - The Beast

[IntelWeenie]

This is a FOW issue that has been brought up a couple of times before. I have posted about it once or twice. I think it comes down to the fact that dead units (not just infantry) are immune to FOW.

Coincidentally (boy, that's the second time today I've said that), I had this happen last night to a German HT that got KO'ed by a mortar (it was shooting at something else, btw ). I knew the HT was there as it had recently reversed out of my LOS and had become a cross symbol. Suddenly, without moving any of my units, it "appeared" with an abandoned label. NO friendlies had LOS to it.

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Canada: Where men were men, unless they were horses.

-Dudley Do-right

[Mark IV]

I just killed a "light tank" and 2 20mm flaks which remained unidentified until my infantry advanced much closer. For several turns, the dead and burning tank in an open field remained identified as "light tank" until it was finally labeled as an armored car.

The 2 flaks remained identified as "light gun" even longer, on the crest of a hill, even though I knew what they were by the sound. They were dead for 5 turns before the infantry got close enough for the generic icon and label to change to the flak guns.

[Kingfish]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I just killed a "light tank" and 2 20mm flaks which remained unidentified until my infantry advanced much closer. For several turns, the dead and burning tank in an open field remained identified as "light tank" until it was finally labeled as an armored car.

The 2 flaks remained identified as "light gun" even longer, on the crest of a hill, even though I knew what they were by the sound. They were dead for 5 turns before the infantry got close enough for the generic icon and label to change to the flak guns<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's not the same thing as what DOF is trying to point out. In your example you had at least limited LOS to the enemy units. In his example the German squads were hidden within the pines, with no units having LOS at the time they died

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Well, squads that are "eliminated" aren't necessarily all dead... maybe the survivors are just being a little too noisy yelling out "MEDIC!!!" and you're just hearing them<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I disagree. Granted, the arty barrage will cause some casualties, but what you see when the dead man icon appears is confirmation of an entire unit being eliminated. DOF pointed out that his nearest unit was 330 meters away, with no LOS.

[Guest Rollstoy]

A related problems are shellholes from fighter-bomber, by the way!

When they attack troop concentrations out of sight of friendly troops, the explosions and the remaining shellholes will give the enemy's advance away.

The only solution would be to check LOS for explosions and shellholes (similar to foxholes). Maybe just as impossible as LOS checks for thread marks ...

Regards, Thomm

[Monticello]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by David Aitken:

It seems the issue is that if you have some contact with a unit, you'll know when it's KO'd, but if you have no contact you won't.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here's anecdotal evidence to support David's claim...

After completing a recent AI game, I was surprised to discover an abandoned Panther and 2 HTs far from the battle. Apparently they all (fortunately) became immobilized early in the game, since my units (artillery included) did not come into contact with them at all.

Gary

[Guest Rollstoy]

With regard to the original issue, I think that (unspotted) dead units should be subjected to the same LOS treatment and restrictions as live ones until they are spotted for the first time. Then they should remain visible for the rest of the game. Although this will slow down turn computation, I think it is well worth the effort. Additionally, the death of a unit does save a lot of AI and LOS CPU cycles, anyway (or so I suppose).

Regards, Thomm

[jshandorf]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rollstoy:

A related problems are shellholes from fighter-bomber, by the way!

When they attack troop concentrations out of sight of friendly troops, the explosions and the remaining shellholes will give the enemy's advance away.

The only solution would be to check LOS for explosions and shellholes (similar to foxholes). Maybe just as impossible as LOS checks for thread marks ...

Regards, Thomm<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know... When a plane drops a 500 pound bomb you are gonna have a good idea of where it fell. You will see the plane the bomb dropping and roughly where it hits. Also lets not forget the huge plume of smoke and dirt you would see.

Jeff

[IntelWeenie]

IIRC, shellholes are not affected by FOW since they are 'terrain'. Jeff gives a good explanation why this is not really a problem, anyway.

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Canada: Where men were men, unless they were horses.

-Dudley Do-right

[Degrees of Frost]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Henri:

Here is what may have happened: the enemy soldiers were hiding, so you couldn't see them. As their casualties increased, they began to rout, but as soon as they got up, they were killed and fell over dead. In other words, what you saw was hidden enemy soldiers breaking out of hiding just before they were eliminated.At least that's what I would guess...

There may be another factor in that what you see is not necessarily what is there: the game shows you what your side THINKS is there given the information available. However in my experience, once a unit is shown as dead, it stays dead.

There is an outside possibility that there were TWO enbemy units where you only saw one, and the sequence of events that you saw did not all correspond to the same unit.

Henri<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK - the german unit was whacked by a stray round and the Infantry? Eliminated icon appeared at EXACTLY the same time as the shell exploded. There was no appearance of movement one might associate with a panicked/moving unit other than the icon getting up and keeling over. This happens from time to time in normal play when a prone infantry unit is eliminated - the prone figure gets up on a knee and then keels over backwards yeilding an icon of a prone body on its back.

Also the unit was deep (more than 25m) in the pines - and in my experience you can have units running around that deep in pines and they will not be spotted from hundreds of metres away.

I have never seen fog of war generate eliminated unit icons that don't really represent eliminated units - nor I have seen the fog of war generate eliminated unit icons for units that have not actually been eliminated.

As for two units being involved my opponent has got his units spread out in those pines (as a result of my enthusiastic use of artillery ) - so the events I have described previously involve only a single unit.

In any case I will ask my opponent to find out exactly what that unit was "experiencing" during the bombardment and maybe this will answer some of Henri's questions/observations.

[This message has been edited by Degrees of Frost (edited 09-16-2000).]

[Degrees of Frost]

The PBEM game in question has been completed (an American victory i might add ) so some of the questions asked above can be more fully addressed.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Degrees of Frost:

Also the unit was deep (more than 25m) in the pines - and in my experience you can have units running around that deep in pines and they will not be spotted from hundreds of metres away. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The unit it question was a platoon HQ that had suffered a single casualty earlier in the game, so we are talking about three guys which I imagine should make them more difficult to spot.

They had become "Alerted!" (losing one of your members to an artillery barrage will do that I guess) and were hiding.

They were positioned 27m from the nearest edge of the pines.

They at no point had LOS to any of my units - so I presume I did not have LOS to them with any of my units

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Degrees of Frost:

In any case I will ask my opponent to find out exactly what that unit was "experiencing" during the bombardment and maybe this will answer some of Henri's questions/observations.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The three members of this HQ all became casualties at the same time and these casualties were inflicted by a single, stray, 105mm VT shell. They didn't panick or rout or anything else before they all became casualties yeilding the Infantry? eliminated icon that I spotted from many hundreds of metres away.

The other eliminated unit that I spotted when it was eliminated was a Volksgrenadier SMG squad which was also hiding (15m from the edge of the pines so could see out and had LOS to my positions) - I don't know how many shells were required to cause the 8 casualties and unfortunately the PBEM files for those turns have been deleted.

[Chupacabra]

I brought up a similar issue a few weeks ago.

A previously hidden gun destroyed one of my troop carriers as I advanced it through a route I'd thought safe. The crew bailed out, and I ran them back to my company HQ. After the crew ran, none of my units had LOS to the gun, and the gun icon was replaced by the generic cross icon.

I ordered some artillery to fire on the area in which the gun was located. At no time between the time the troop carrier was destroyed and the time the shells started falling did any of my units have LOS to the gun. The first shell fell very close to where the gun was located, and immediately, the generic cross was replaced by the knocked-out gun icon, and it was marked as knocked-out in the status box.

As I had no troops with LOS to the gun at the time it was destroyed, I felt that I shouldn't have been able to know that it had been knocked out. Luckily, I was playing against the AI, so it didn't give me an unfair advantage against anyone. My plan had been to arty the area for at least a full turn, but as it was, the shells fell towards the end of a turn, and I was able to cancel fire at the beginning of the next.

Again, I have no idea whether this problem was noted or addressed, but it does seem worth looking into. I doubt I still have an autosave file, unfortunately, but I'm sure I could whip something similar up.

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Soy super bien, soy super super bien, soy bien bien super bien bien bien super super.

[Bruno Weiss]

It's that old saying you know. If a Tiger is hit in the woods and no one is around to see it, did it happen?

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"Wer zuerst schiesst hat mehr von Leben"

Moto-(3./JG11 "Graf")

Bruno "Stachel" Weiss