Work in progress - KIngTiger!!

[Guest MantaRay]

Who cares if he DL'd it or not as long as he did buy a copy. BTS is not being harmed by his download as long as they have the money he paid them.

And if he didn't buy the game, well he is lower than dog ****. He has done some work for BTS, and if he slaps them in the face by not buying it.

And if BTS says he bought a copy, I wont care what he does before he gets it, just the people who dont pay for it that DL it that I care about. And I am shocked that more people havent downloaded it while they are waiting, and I am sure that no one who has "checked" the warez sites for it has actually not dl'd it.

Ray

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When asked, "How many moves do you see ahead?", CAPABLANCA replied: "One move - the best one."

MantaRays 5 Pages

Hardcore Gamers Daily

[Guest Big Time Software]

For the record, CoolColJ is entitled to a legitimate copy of CM.

I'm a little bummed if he's using a pirate copy right now, but he's not freeloading like it might seem. He's a "legit" user.

Thanks for standing up against piracy, everyone, but CCJ really isn't the guy you should be going after. He actually does a lot to help CM.

Charles

[KiwiJoe]

God damn if u warez bustin wankers have stopped ColCoolJ from releasing his AWESOME textures I'll be majorly pissed. The dude has put so much work into upgrading the look of this game I think he deserves a free version at the VERY least!

[snagdad]

this is a tough one...

The subject of alternative methods of obtaining CM has been mentioned here several times over the past week. I have to admit that before reading about it on this forum I had never even heard the "w" word, which might kind of label what kind of computer guy I am. On Saturday, when the game still didn't arrive, I went looking and after a bit found some, which, while they had an incredible amount of stuff, literally made me a bit sick to my stomach. The pornography and such was too much. The constant request for "votes" was suspicious, someone is making money somewhere. One place was baldly asking for people to "join" if they worked in a retail outlet or somewhere in the chain of software development and could (presumably) stomach stealing CDs. All parroted about "anarchy" and "freedom" and so on. Even so, had I been looking at a simple one hour time frame I might have gone for it; after all, I ordered, I paid, I just wanted to play on Sunday. But it was several hours, I use a Mac and it probably wouldn't work, and so on. So I didn't and hope CM will arrive tomorrow.

Several comments about "w" on this forum say don't even mention it because most people simply don't know about it and by mentioning it they will start looking. I am a perfect example of this, and would have to agree. Geez, after this message I'll never mention it again.

I read the TV example above, and while it is right as rain, this is the digital world, not bricks and mortar. Correct me if I am wrong, but this in almost exclusively a Moral issue and not a Legal and Moral issue, as in the TV example ? Is it illegal to obtain stuff in the "w" way, or just immoral? Colin doesn't even seem to think its wrong or (by extension) immoral. I think it is, let alone kind of stupid to rub everyone's face in it. Didn't he think this community would a)notice or b)care or c)be upset ?

I have owned my own business for several years and what I usually say is that owning your own business turns you into a criminal. If you walk the extreme straight and narrow, you can expense yourself right out of business; if you go the other way, you engage in fraud and worse. Picking your own line between the two is not an easy thing.

Situations like this "w" thing crop up all the time. It's clearly wrong but easy to justify as "beating the system" or "helping the post office along". It's another opportunity gone by to "do the right thing".

And now perhaps we've lost Colin which in the grand scheme of things is not a big deal I suppose. Nonetheless, he was nice enough to invite me to his site for Mac resources and I was looking forward to his add ons, etc.

The whole thing is kind of a bummer...

I'm certain that I'll cheer up tomorrow when CM arrives.

[The DesertFox]

And again misconception killed the progress of this game. Sad, sad, sad.

CoolColJ, I hope you release your mods even though some people accuse you of using a pirated copy of CM. It would be a real loss if not.

Helge

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Sbelling chequed wyth MICROSOFT SPELLCHECKER - vorgs grate!

- The DesertFox -

Email: desertfox1891@hotmail.com

WWW: http://www.geocities.com/desertfox1891

[Guest KwazyDog]

'and I am sure that no one who has "checked" the warez sites for it has actually not dl'd it.'

Just for the record Manta, I found it and I didnt.

I went out looking for it on purpose and only found it in one place and I passed it straight onto Charles for his info. Im still waiting for my full copy to arrive over here, fingures crossed I should get it this week. Yeah, I would have loved to have grabbed the full version for use instead of the last final candidate Im using right now, but I wasnt going to stoop to downloading it from a warez sight to do so, I can wait another few days.

To be honest it really pissed me off when I found Steves and Charles last 3 years of work sitting on a warez sight. So much effort and some people are getting it so easily. This whole warez thing has really gotten me down in the last week or so to be honest.

Of course I knew it would happen, just wish it didnt....

[This message has been edited by KwazyDog (edited 06-26-2000).]

[Supertanker]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by snagdad:

I read the TV example above, and while it is right as rain, this is the digital world, not bricks and mortar. Correct me if I am wrong, but this in almost exclusively a Moral issue and not a Legal and Moral issue, as in the TV example ? Is it illegal to obtain stuff in the "w" way, or just immoral?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Charles already signed off on this subject, but I thought I would add something legal because this is a good example of how the law often has trouble stretching to fit new technology.

The TV example doesn't work here because it is confusing two crimes. The crime in the TV example is Breaking and Entering or maybe Trespass, not theft. If you own the TV, it cannot be theft, because you you lack intent to steal and are not depriving someone else of their property. (It has been too long since law school; I cannot remember if that is a factual impossibility or a legal impossibility.) Anyway, if you don't have to B&E or trespass to get your property, you haven't committed a crime in taking your own property. So, while there may be some independent crime in downloading the warez, it would be hard to convict a licensee of theft.

[Rudee]

Superb job on that King Tiger. You're quite the talented artist.

[Guest Big Time Software]

Supertanker,

This is correct except for one thing... you can not receive stolen property. The Warez copy is illegal, plain and simple. It isn't even the same code as we released, so that further distinguishes it from what can be purchased from us. While you might be able to debate the legality of the act of downloading something you already technically own, you can not debate the fact that the opportunity presented to allow such a download is itself illegal. It has been a long time since my law classes, but the founding principle of 2 wrongs (uploading illegal software, then downloading the same illegal software) doesn't equal a right applies here (legit ownership of something other than what was downloaded).

Back to the TV thing... it would be like buying TV Brand X with serial number 1234, but then picking up TV Brand X with a scratched out serial number off the back of the truck. It is not the same TV that you bought, an the guy with the truck has no legal right to offer it to you.

Steve

[This message has been edited by Big Time Software (edited 06-26-2000).]

[RMC]

Mensch, Helge, wo biste gewesen?

This is a thorny topic. Should he be judged by his presumed action here or perhaps intent? If he has already ordered the game and BTS has been paid then we are really picking a nit here provided the presumed "w" version is deleted upon receipt of the real deal. He did not crack the game himself, or make it available to others. If anything he seems to have done it only to start work on more textures for the benefit of everyone else.

[This message has been edited by RMC (edited 06-26-2000).]

[The DesertFox]

Bob,

Ueber beide Ohren in Arbeit versunken und wochenlang kein Wochenende mehr gehabt. Ich hoffe das bleibt kein Dauerzustand, zumindest nicht wenn ich nächste oder uebernaechste Woche meine CM-Copy bekomme.

Ansonsten muesste das gute Stueck im Regal verstauben. Wäre ja Schade drum.

Helge

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Sbelling chequed wyth MICROSOFT SPELLCHECKER - vorgs grate!

- The DesertFox -

Email: desertfox1891@hotmail.com

WWW: http://www.geocities.com/desertfox1891

[Blackwood]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fionn:

I'm just posting here cause I don't want everyone jumping on Marcus.

1. Colin did NOT get a beta.

2. The ONLY way he has CM is if he got it via downloading from a warez site since CM hasn't arrived in Australia yet.

3. He HAS publicly shown and stated that he has CM and is in Australia. Therefore he d/led it from a warez site.

He also reported the site to Charles ( which is good) BUT he dl/ed a warez version ( which is VERY, VERY, VERY bad) and I know a lot of other testers feel as angry as him as I do.

We feel very let down by his behaviour.

To those who want to give the benefit of the doubt etc.. That's very nice of you BUT (and I want to underline this) there is no doubt about what happened. It is known to testers and those whom I've talked with about this feel as angry as I do at what has happened.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Constable Fion, you appear to be well versed in rights and wrongs of life so please explain the difference between jumping on Marcus to jumping Colin.

Ron

[thomasj]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MantaRay:

And I am shocked that more people havent downloaded it while they are waiting, and I am sure that no one who has "checked" the warez sites for it has actually not dl'd it.

Ray

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Seen it around and still waiting for the real deal here also, thinking about it and doing it are two different beasts all together. I even bought another copy because I knew at one point one of my buddies was going to ask that age old question "Can you burn me a copy?" "No is the answer but you can order it and borrow this extra until your copy arrives."

[PawBroon]

If I may add my two cents.

Living down under is the surest way to receive your game after they saved the Pvt Ryan.

The guy had BOUGHT the game, he is WORKING for the community (and MOST of us will benefit from is work) and BTS is not bashing Colin for that.

So, YES, there are moral issues.

But I'd rather have an impatient Aussie who is actually doing is SHARE in enlightment than a mere **** who downloaded the game and be done (No pre-order, no post, no MODS).

For what its worth.

On my behalf Colin, sorry for the way you've been treated here.

I'm not promoting those Warez sites.

It was bad and stupid of you to do it and to ADVERTIZE it.

But if you take Fionn's post backward you have to ask the TRUE question and find the true object of your legitimate anger:

a/Colin is in Australia and can't have received the game

b/Colin hadn't been a beta tester

c/Therefore Colin hasn't UPLOAD CM to Warez sites.

If you want to be sick over someone, find the prick who posted the game AS SOON AS he received it thus denying BTS of some much deserved sales.

I'll finish with a quote from a fellow French, "I do not agree with what you have to say (Or did here ) but I'll fight so that you could say it..."

OK Colin, NOW be good and post your MODS in warez sites.

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Either he's dead or my watch has stopped

[This message has been edited by PawBroon (edited 06-26-2000).]

[Trooper]

Hmm.. What if he had it sent to a friend of his in the US, somewhere geographically near where the game ships from, so that friend would have gotten it sooner, then had it Fed-Exed overnight (or similar) to his humble abode in Oz? That might account for the speed with which the game appeared on his hard drive. And frankly, I wouldn't put it past a chap as eager to get his hands on it as he appears to have been.

I'll admit that the chances of this are slim, but much though I'm not so keen on software piracy, I'm even less keen on lynch mobs, which is exactly what I've seen here. I still haven't seen any definitive explanations as to how he received the game, all I have seen so far are two negatives: He did not receive a beta or receive the full version directly. Hardly beyond reasonable doubt if you ask me. But then this isn't a court case.

FWIW, on the law side, if I recall from my law classes, there's a rule of law which states that in a conflict of law between common law and equity, equity shall prevail. If I were the judge he were hauled up before, and if indeed he had, as seems most likely, ordered a full version and downloaded a pirate copy to work with in the interim, I would probably award nominal damages plus costs.. After all, he did (presumably) pay, no money was (Presumably) lost to BTS, he did not (presumably) contribute to the pirate copying of the game, and he was definitely providing a wanted public service.

A tough moral issue indeed, but I still think people over-reacted in this case.

NTM

[mfred]

So, tell me how the warez site got the game so early in the first place????????

[PawBroon]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mfred:

So, tell me how the warez site got the game so early in the first place????????<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My point entirely.

See my above post...

So prick uploaded a crack version of his pre ordered game.

It's weird he should have more fidelity to his Warez buddies (hence supplying CM) than to this much deserving CM community.

Seeing as there may be less of those who had the game than there were still waiting for it, one should consider giving CoolColJ a break about it all...

In any case, EVERY single piece of software is hacked, cracked and downloadable.

CM being ripped this early is a tribute to the game quality and unless the would be downloaders head on there and post stupid questions, there's no way they'll enjoy the game fully without a knowledgeable manuel and the support of a willing community.

PS: Colin, considering you beat us during the rugby world cup final, I think I will stop coming to your rescue...

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Either he's dead or my watch has stopped

[Screaming Demon]

After reading this thread it was so tempting to get a warez copy of CM and i gave into temptation and went looking, found nothing except 'vote for my site at these 380 websites', its like looking for a decent porn site. and after countless hours of banner clicking and downloading corrupt files i finally relised i was never going to get CM until it arrived in the mail and if i cant wait 1 more week for it im pathetic. youve got my word that i will never dl a warez copy of CM.

[This message has been edited by Screaming Demon (edited 06-26-2000).]

[Fred]

Whoever cracked and uploaded CM to a warez site should be well aware, that in this case it's not only the company(BTS) that is pissed, but the whole gaming community here...

Fred

[NCrawler]

I do not want the warez version (since I already have the game), I do however want the CD-check crack. The 'CD-check' is the most annoying form of copy protection. It is easily defeated due to the prevalence of burners now days. Unlike most of the fanatics on this forum I do not leave my CM CD in the drive all the time. It gets thrown into a pile with all of my other CD's when not in use. BTS should consider some other form of copy protection if they are serious about cracking down on warez copies.

[marcusm]

I also think it's wrong to slam on Colin though. I was not angry at him.

The fault is fully at the organised crime responsible for this. I also do not believe the sledgehammer is the best solution to prove someone has done something wrong. In 9 out of 10 cases it's better to point out the flaws and argue why it's bad to use copies.

In this case because at the same time you support the heavy crime. You also contribute to the death of PC gaming.

Marcus

[G4A]

Some related questions:

Where do the sounds in the Mod Packs come from? I've seen SPR and Close Combat mentioned. Do MadMatt and ColJ have permission to use other people's work? If not, how does everyone feel about downloading stolen property in that case?

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"Oh, German! I'm sorry, I thought there was something wrong with you."

[Fred]

G4A,

you should choose your words more carefully before talking about "stolen property" in the case of the ModPacks...

What is your point, anyway?

Fred

[FutbolHead]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PawBroon:

Originally posted by mfred:

So, tell me how the warez site got the game so early in the first place????????<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

(snip)

It's weird he should have more fidelity to his Warez buddies (hence supplying CM) than to this much deserving CM community.

(snip)

You've never heard the saying "There's no honor amongst theives."

[Guest Madmatt]

The sounds in Colins and my sound packs come from a variety of sources. Close Combat itself used public domain sources and so holds no explicit copyright to their sounds(you can get them rather easily actually). Also there is no money being made by the Mod makers, they are free to the public and as such do not require any special permission.

None of the MDMP-1 sounds are 100% any one elses work. They have all been remixed and re-edited and while they may SOUND like something straight off a DVD thats not always the case and you may be surprised what the orginal really was.

As to the other topic of this rather rambling thread I will say this, without drawing any conclusions to any individuals guilt or innocence.

Many weeks ago I made a commitment in a thread which asked us NOT to pirate Combat Mission. I said I wouldn't and I won't. By going to someones site and downloading an illegaly obtained copy of Combat Mission you are PROMOTING piracy. These sites live on hits and site visits and going there, for whatever purpose, just gives them the impetus to continue. They pirate games not based on the programs inherent appeal or quality but rather to establish bragging rights amongst the other organized warez groups. And trust me they ARE organized, far more than most have any clue about. They will crack, hack and pirate EVERYTHING that becomes available as it is an addiction to them to have cracked the world. Its all about numbers to them and when you visit their sites, you give them that...

If you download a warez copy of Combat Mission then you ARE pirating software...

Regardless of the legal implications of this action its up to all of us, as individuals, to make a conscience descission on what that really means.

Its really pretty cut and dry in my eyes..

Madmatt...

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[This message has been edited by Madmatt (edited 06-26-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Madmatt (edited 06-26-2000).]