Henri Posted October 16, 2000 Share Posted October 16, 2000 OK, I've had enough; I have started some admittedly controversial discussions, but the last series of messages on my thread about "What is maneuver warfare" is the last straw. Steve of BTS among others accuses me of disrespect towards other participants whereas I have carefully avoided any personal attacks despite being the object of personal attacks and my statements being qualified by Steve as "pure unadulterated BS", and contradicting other posters' comments by posting quotes from relevant authors. Some of the participants have been throwing oil on the fire by misrepresenting my position then tearing down the straw man. I have come to the conclusion that it is not possible on this forum to have an intellectual discussion that has any hint of criticism towards, Combat Mission, and therefore I respectfully bow out.This is not new for me, because I have received exactly the same treatment on the long discussion on gamey issues. To those who have attempted to have a civilized discussion about the admittedly confusing subject of maneuver wardare, I give my thanks, and if our opinions differ beyond and above the confusion, I fully respect your right to have a different opinion. Don't bother to reply to me on this forum since I won't be here to read it.If any of you are interested in discussing with me in a civilized manner, you will find me on the usenet war-historical forum. Goodbye to all... Henri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CavScout Posted October 16, 2000 Share Posted October 16, 2000 If this isn't a good example of "maneuver warfare" I don't know what is. That is to say avoiding strong opposition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IntelWeenie Posted October 16, 2000 Share Posted October 16, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Henri: To those who have attempted to have a civilized discussion about the admittedly confusing subject of maneuver wardare, I give my thanks, and if our opinions differ beyond and above the confusion, I fully respect your right to have a different opinion. Henri<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Gee, just when it was getting interesting... I of course, had a differing opinion but was accused rather of making personal attacks and misrepresenting him by quoting his own posts. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Henri: I have come to the conclusion that it is not possible on this forum to have an intellectual discussion that has any hint of criticism towards, Combat Mission, and therefore I respectfully bow out.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Sorry, Henri, I don't buy it. This is going to piss off a bunch of people (oh, well, I'm having a bad day anyway), but I'm really tired of hearing this kind of whiny crap from people who have lost an argument because they couldn't debate their point of view in a coherent and persuasive manner. They then decide to announce to the world that they have been driven off by the "meanies" on the board and they're going to take their toys home and not play with us anymore. Sour Grapes. ------------------ Cats aren't clean, they're covered with cat spit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CavScout Posted October 16, 2000 Share Posted October 16, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by IntelWeenie: Sorry, Henri, I don't buy it. This is going to piss off a bunch of people (oh, well, I'm having a bad day anyway), but I'm really tired of hearing this kind of whiny crap from people who have lost an argument because they couldn't debate their point of view in a coherent and persuasive manner. They then decide to announce to the world that they have been driven off by the "meanies" on the board and they're going to take their toys home and not play with us anymore. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> What really is annoying is his running off to the newsgroup and saying anyone who didn't agree with his is part of some Combat Mission jihad.. ------------------ Deutsch sollte nie verlieren. Kampf-Mission muß das widerspiegeln. "Maneuverists have a bad case of what may be called, to borrow from a sister social science, "Wehrmact penis envy."--D. Bolger [This message has been edited by CavScout (edited 10-16-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holdit Posted October 16, 2000 Share Posted October 16, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CavScout: What really is annoying is his running off to the newsgroup and saying anyone who didn't agree with his is part of some Combat Mission jihad.. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> It's an inquisition, apparently... Bloody spelling mistakes [This message has been edited by Holdit (edited 10-16-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CavScout Posted October 16, 2000 Share Posted October 16, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Holdit: It's an inquisistion, apparently... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> OK! Back to my CM alter... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Heidman Posted October 16, 2000 Share Posted October 16, 2000 I don't blame him. I don't always agree with him, but he is correct in his assessmnet of this board. There are people who will absolutely flame anyone who hints at any kind of criticism of CM. Steve is one of them. The sad part is that Steve will on one hand flame away where a flame is not warranted, make personal attacks, etc. , and then have his little sycophants immediately show up and accuse everyone else of being personal and not debating the point. This doublespeak is amusing, at best. The level of intellectual dishonesty displayed by people on this board is sometimes staggering. It is amazing that people like you guys will actually refuse to debate in a reasonend manner, and then feel superior when people get sick of it and leave. It is not sour grapes, it is getting tired of dealing with a bunch of people incapable of putting an argument together without getting personal. Henri is not the first, or the last, to leave because of this board intolerance for anything but the party line. Pravda! Jeff Heidman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mannheim Tanker Posted October 16, 2000 Share Posted October 16, 2000 Hmmm...I hadn't read the Maneuver Warfare thread until seeing Henri's farewell post. Having just read the entire MW post from start to finish, I can't see where anyone launched a personal attack on him or dodged the issue. Sure, there were some strongly worded replies to his posts, but they appear to have been out of frustration more than anything. I guess I must be part of the collective, Jeff, because I don't agree with your assessment of Henri's treatment. It was a fair, intelligent, and respectful debate as far as the other participants were concerned. Henri, on the otherhand, came across as condescending and dismissive of any viewpoint that differed from his. EDIT: Spelling, as usual ------------------ "Gun damaged are rare on Shermans because they die like red shirts on Star Trek" - Slapdragon [This message has been edited by Mannheim Tanker (edited 10-16-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackhorse Posted October 16, 2000 Share Posted October 16, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jeff Heidman: There are people who will absolutely flame anyone who hints at any kind of criticism of CM. Steve is one of them. The level of intellectual dishonesty displayed by people on this board is sometimes staggering. It is amazing that people like you guys will actually refuse to debate in a reasonend manner, and then feel superior when people get sick of it and leave. It is not sour grapes, it is getting tired of dealing with a bunch of people incapable of putting an argument together without getting personal. Henri is not the first, or the last, to leave because of this board intolerance for anything but the party line. Pravda! Jeff Heidman<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Jeff, Please do me a favor. Go read the thread What is Maneuver Warfare in its entirety. After you read all of it (much was added today) tell me who was/is being intellectually dishonest. I made several valid points to Henri, yet he ignored them all. Bottom line, he was mistaken in his statements but refused to accept that. What would your solution have been? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. Bates Posted October 16, 2000 Share Posted October 16, 2000 Well, Jeff Heidman does not usually say anything stupid, and yet again I would have to agree with him. It is obvious that people on this board are either accepted or ostracized if they do not go with the flow. I rarely bother posting. I mean, Combat Mission is a game, but someone tries to go along from a gaming perspective, you get these historical egg heads who answer the question from a real life perspective. And so in the end it is whoever has read the most history books who never gets shouted down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ACTOR Posted October 16, 2000 Share Posted October 16, 2000 Good bye Henri. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CavScout Posted October 16, 2000 Share Posted October 16, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jeff Heidman: I don't blame him. I don't always agree with him, but he is correct in his assessmnet of this board. There are people who will absolutely flame anyone who hints at any kind of criticism of CM. Steve is one of them.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Considering the discussion had little to do with CM I don't see your point. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> The sad part is that Steve will on one hand flame away where a flame is not warranted, make personal attacks, etc. , and then have his little sycophants immediately show up and accuse everyone else of being personal and not debating the point. This doublespeak is amusing, at best.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Of course the "inquisition", Henri does complain about it a bit on the newsgroups... <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> The level of intellectual dishonesty displayed by people on this board is sometimes staggering. It is amazing that people like you guys will actually refuse to debate in a reasonend manner, and then feel superior when people get sick of it and leave.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> What do you consider "reasoned"? Agreeing with whatever is said? Apparently as any other source other than apporved by Henri was considered worthless. And even then it is tough to follow as Henri couldn't keep his "theory" straight and when called on it and it was PROVED he has a breakdown. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> It is not sour grapes, it is getting tired of dealing with a bunch of people incapable of putting an argument together without getting personal. Henri is not the first, or the last, to leave because of this board intolerance for anything but the party line. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> It is not a "personal attack" to point out one's inconsistency. We were "accused" of misrepresentation when the fact is that he was confusing his own position. If that is a personal attack so be it. Cav Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadDog0606 Posted October 16, 2000 Share Posted October 16, 2000 I'm more then likely going to get stepped on for this, but here goes. I read the thread. I found it very enlighting. Some of it was over my head. It read like a (mostly) friendly discussion to me. So what if Steve got in to defend his game and to explain that it is a tactical wargame? The way I play the game is that maneuver is done by the time the battles in CM occur. It (the thread) wasn't going Henri's way so Henri left. The problem with some people (and I get this way too) is that they start discussions expecting to be agreed with and when that doesn't happen they get mad. Such is life. Now, since this is a Combat Mission Forum I would expect for people to look unfavorably on criticism of the game. But that is not how I read that particular thread. Henri was stating his definition of Maneuver Warfare, using CM as an example (among other things) and other people were stating their positions on it. I tended to go with the people who had military backgrounds since usually they are the ones who are the experts and they sounded like they knew what they were talking about. Henri was asked what his background was and I belive he never answered. My background is 5 years in the US Navy and I will NEVER, EVER get into a discussion of what is maneuver warfare. I just point the tank and shoot it and hope it hits something. By the way, I LOVE the spell checker!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mannheim Tanker Posted October 16, 2000 Share Posted October 16, 2000 MBates: As Cav just pointed out, the thread in question WAS about historical/real world issues, not about the game. In this case, I don't see your point, since your argument is irrelevant... In other threads, the "gamey" players tried to defend their use of gamey tactics using historical testimonies, so once again, I must disagree with your judgement. ------------------ "Gun damaged are rare on Shermans because they die like red shirts on Star Trek" - Slapdragon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mannheim Tanker Posted October 16, 2000 Share Posted October 16, 2000 Hehe...good post, MadDog. Like you, I decided to stay out of the MW post, because I had little to contribute. Ironically, I'd bet money that my qualifications to do so were at least on par with Henri's (I have 6 years army experience). The vets made a good argument and backed it up with plenty of references - and did so quite respectfully. I don't understand how people could take their debate as "personal" or trying to "ostracize" Henri. To the contrary, most posts went to great leaps to understand his points. ------------------ "Gun damaged are rare on Shermans because they die like red shirts on Star Trek" - Slapdragon [This message has been edited by Mannheim Tanker (edited 10-16-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. Bates Posted October 16, 2000 Share Posted October 16, 2000 Well I started a thread about PBEM being inherently easier for the German player, and all these brown-nosers start to pile in. These brown-nosers never put forward any original thougts of their own, all they do is cut and paste quotes out of context, and then vent all their "wit". Then I start to become aggressive (my mistake). The same above can apply for anyone. ------------------ "War is like the cinema. The best seats are at the back... the front is all flicker." - Monte Cassino by Sven Hassel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jshandorf Posted October 16, 2000 Share Posted October 16, 2000 All I have to say is that it makes me sad to see someone go just because he was lambasted in a thread. What happened to Henri is like having a huge pack of hungry chinchillas nipping and biting at your ankles. While their attacks may not draw blood they still leave wounds. The few times I have questioned modeling in the game most people have been civil but there are a few, some have posted in this thread, that seem to take some sort of pleasure attacking someone's argument as if it was on a personal level. You don't have to get personal to offend. Needless to say at one point on this board I actually felt like I was a contributing part to the game in some way. I liked that, but long before Henri left that all changed for me. Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muzzlehead Posted October 16, 2000 Share Posted October 16, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CavScout: is part of some Combat Mission jihad.. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> You mean the Jihad has been cancelled? Damn, now I can't charge into Best Buy and pillage the Computer Software Section, freeing my local community from male white corporate oppression. Damn! I told Mace he had gone to far by protesting at Wal-Mart naked. Now the Combat Mission Jihad is off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mannheim Tanker Posted October 16, 2000 Share Posted October 16, 2000 That's too bad that you feel that way, Jeff. Just remember that for every outspoken post criticizing your ideas, there may be a hundred other people that benefit from it. Also, people shouldn't see all disputing posts as "bad"...this IS a forum after all. Honest, spirited debate is good for the game. I've learned a lot from the people on this board, and I've put my foot in my mouth on more than one occasion...no harm done I hope! ------------------ "Gun damaged are rare on Shermans because they die like red shirts on Star Trek" - Slapdragon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadDog0606 Posted October 16, 2000 Share Posted October 16, 2000 I guess I should pay more attention to this forum and start reading all the messages and not just the ones I find interesting. In the particular thread that caused Henri to give up on this forum it didn't read like people were out for Henris' blood (so to speak). It read like Henri was loosing the argument. If a person has problems with being disagreed with in public (which is what this forum is) they should never start a discussion in the first place. There is always someone out there who will disagree with what you have to say (and I'm sure there will be somebody who will disagree with me on this). What one needs is an open mind and the ability for that mind to change. I've changed my mind about many things, just ask my wife. I know people who love to argue over anything and if you disagree with them they don't mind. That ability (the don't mind part) should be a pre-condition for posting something on this or any forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jshandorf Posted October 16, 2000 Share Posted October 16, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MadDog0606: I guess I should pay more attention to this forum and start reading all the messages and not just the ones I find interesting. In the particular thread that caused Henri to give up on this forum it didn't read like people were out for Henris' blood (so to speak). It read like Henri was loosing the argument. If a person has problems with being disagreed with in public (which is what this forum is) they should never start a discussion in the first place. There is always someone out there who will disagree with what you have to say (and I'm sure there will be somebody who will disagree with me on this). What one needs is an open mind and the ability for that mind to change. I've changed my mind about many things, just ask my wife. I know people who love to argue over anything and if you disagree with them they don't mind. That ability (the don't mind part) should be a pre-condition for posting something on this or any forum.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> That I can agree with, but I think Henri's leaving isn't because of his latest thread it apparently has to do with a series of threads he has posted. Mind you, I understand his frustration, but leaving in a huff is not something I would do, nor do I think it will solve his problem. I feel he will only encounter the same sort of reaction elsewhere. Also I only think there are a very few people here that take some sort of glee out of crushing someone's argument publicly, and personally I think they do it for that sake alone, which makes me sad. But alas.. I just avoid those people. Jeff [This message has been edited by jshandorf (edited 10-16-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaos Posted October 16, 2000 Share Posted October 16, 2000 Well, I'm afraid that I must weigh in with the "I don't see a problem" contingent. I thought the thread was pretty interesting, and I certainly didn't see any evidence of the mythical "Jihad Brigade". As a matter of fact, CM seemed to be completely ancillary to the discussion. I think Henri is just having a bad day. chaos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuckyShot Posted October 16, 2000 Share Posted October 16, 2000 >>What happened to Henri is like having a huge pack of hungry chinchillas nipping and biting at your ankles. While their attacks may not draw blood they still leave wounds.<< Oh, I think a ravenous pack of chinchillas would indeeed draw blood and quite possibly leave you tottering around on bloody stumps. Those animals are much more ferocious and dentally-endowed than hamsters, and they've got a mean streak to boot - probably as a result of years of brutal exploitation in the coat manufacturing business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadDog0606 Posted October 16, 2000 Share Posted October 16, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jshandorf: Also I only think there are a very few people here that take some sort of glee out of crushing someone's argument publicly, and personally I think they do it for that sake alone, which makes me sad. But alas.. I just avoid those people. Jeff <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yes, you should avoid people who disagree just for their own personel pleasure and make no sense in their statements when doing it. But, if they crush your argument in a way that shows you were wrong in the first place (even if they have fun doing it) they still have served the purpose of showing that you were wrong in your thinking. You may not LIKE how they did it, but your knowlegde on the subject being discussed will have improved and you will have learned from your mistakes. And you will be better prepared the next time. Hopefully, what I wrote made sense. Don't get me wrong. I liked reading posts by Henri. I may not have agreed with some of the things he wrote about but they were stll informative. [This message has been edited by MadDog0606 (edited 10-16-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sten Posted October 16, 2000 Share Posted October 16, 2000 Henri, I just read the MW thread. Steve and Blackhorse (among others) countered your arguments in a constructive manner. You were not attacked and despite their efforts to answer your questions, you didn't repay them in kind. If you decide to read this thread, please take the time to reread the MW topic. I'm sure you'll see that no foul was comitted. ------------------ Sten Keep your whisky on the rocks and your tanks on the roll. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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