DaMilli Posted September 16, 2000 Share Posted September 16, 2000 Greetings, since I haven´t found satisfactory answers in old topics I would like to ask for your opinion: When selecting units for a PBEM I am often in a dilemma concerning the experience level of my troops. So, for example, I always have to ask myself: "Okay buddy, are we going to buy this veteren KingTiger for 2xx points or will I rather pick a regular one for xxx and still have some money for a Hetzer (or something)". The same situation fits for infantry, artillery or anything else. It always seems to be a choice between quality and quantitiy ("Masse statt Klasse" - a german proverb) and I just wanted to hear your thoughts and experiences... If this may have already been discussed before, please give me topics. Thanks ------------------ "I am no fool!" Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Aitken Posted September 16, 2000 Share Posted September 16, 2000 I'd sooner have ten Veterans than fifty Greenies. Each skill increment is significantly better than the previous. Furthermore, the skill advantage is exponential - say Veterans were twice as good as Greenies, you couldn't achieve with twenty of the latter everything you could with ten of the former. More experienced troops are just far more reliable and efficient. Take note, however, that it doesn't matter how experienced your troops are if you don't know how to use them. Elite troops won't fare any better than Conscripts if you expect them to charge prepared defences across an open field, for example. David ------------------ They lost all of their equipment and had to swim in under machine gun fire. As they struggled in the water, Gardner heard somebody say, "Perhaps we're intruding, this seems to be a private beach." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USGrant Posted September 16, 2000 Share Posted September 16, 2000 Buy the veterans. Recent PBEM games have shown me that veterans will ususally wipe an equal cost force regulars, let alone greens. The compounded effects of better spotting, better shooting, quicker response, and better morale are huge, and not sufficiently accounted for in the point system. IMO the whole purchase point structure of the game is too "flat". Effectiveness goes up faster than cost, so one should almost always buy fewer of the "best" units available. Best may mean veterans versus regulars, or Panthers versus PzIVs. ------------------ USGrant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L.Tankersley Posted September 16, 2000 Share Posted September 16, 2000 In general, I prefer quality, but want to point out that if you buy a small number of high-quality units, you leave yourself vulnerable to chance. If you have one veteran heavy tank, but it gets taken out by a lucky artillery round or critical hit, you lose a bigger % of your force than losing one of a platoon of average tanks. Similarly with a veteran infantry force - one veteran platoon may be able to take 2 regular platoons, but if your platoon gets pasted by artillery, they might not achieve anything for you, and your opponent still has 2 platoons in good order. Finally, high quality troops lose a lot of their effectiveness when they run out of ammunition. I've run into this situation a few times - I'll have high quality troops that run up quite a kill tally, but I'm out of bullets and my opponent still has men to throw into the meat grinder. ------------------ Leland J. Tankersley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mr. Johnson-<THC>- Posted September 16, 2000 Share Posted September 16, 2000 usally like to go with veteran infantry and regular tanks, unless I'm the allies, you should go with veteran tanks. With regular tank troops with the allies the seem to abandon a little sooner then I would like. Tankersley brings up a good point, Ammo. There is never enough. I try to get a mix of some low guality troops mixed with my pros. The Volkstrum platoon rocks in that capacity, with 4 panzerfausts, and 4 rifle squads. Gives those Fallschrimjager some extra firepower. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarmo Posted September 16, 2000 Share Posted September 16, 2000 A vote for regulars. Veterans do have their place in my selections, but I rarely buy a large amount of 'em. I've lost a crack Panther one time too many against a regular firefly. I'll rather take a regular plus a hetzer. ------------------ Now, would this brilliant plan involve us climbing out of our trenches and walking slowly towards the enemy sir? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hans Posted September 16, 2000 Share Posted September 16, 2000 I wouldn't consider going into a PBEM without a veteran, nay, even an elite truck on my side. When the situation gets tight and the lead is flying a man able to change gears or a tire in a pinch is often the straw that breaks the enemies morale. Trucks.....the secret of victory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest KarlXII Posted September 16, 2000 Share Posted September 16, 2000 One thing to keep in mind is to have enough troops to be able to cover the map effectivly. I've had an opponent buy one veteran Fallschirmsjaeger company, a vet King Tiger, 75 pillbox + some more on the defence. I could easliy go around into his flanks with some smoke and make a pincer with my two companies and six tanks, all regulars. Just take care to make your regulars fight together against veterans so the can't eat you one piece at a time. Karl ------------------ Fire for effect! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Michael emrys Posted September 16, 2000 Share Posted September 16, 2000 At least with the Americans, investing in veterans is definitely a good move. I am far less convinced that going above the veteran level is smart, though. One thing I've noticed the AI opponent doing is buying great hordes of low-quality troops. This has an interesting effect, at least when they are on the defensive. Low-quality troops tend to break much quicker and flee the battlefield, but while around there are so many of them that they can cost me casualties while I pry each of them out of their positions. Lots of prep artillery can encourage them on their way; they don't seem to stand up to that kind of pounding as well as more experienced troops. But it's hard to get artillery everywhere it's needed, so you have to go in and dig one out from time to time, and like I say, it's gonna cost you. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Devils Posted September 16, 2000 Share Posted September 16, 2000 You're damn scootin their worth it! I tend to pick them more often on offense, however and less often on defense. Also I buy them for important units even if the rest of my army is regular/green (panzerschreck/bazooka, snipers...). They are worth it too if you know that you are going to have an infantry heavy (airborne) force and you might be facing some tanks. ------------------ I'm sorry, we haven't the facilities to take all of you prisoner. Was there anything else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaMilli Posted September 17, 2000 Author Share Posted September 17, 2000 Thanx to all who have answered so far, it is very interesting to hear what you have to say. As anyone can see, the opinions differ, but there seem to be two positions to extract. The first fraction tends towards veteran units in general. The other one votes for a mix of regualrs and veterans depending on certain strategys. I would agree with L.Tankersley who just (literally) said that a dead or out of ammo veteran unit is just as useless as a regular one. Concerning armour, maybe going veteran for the american panzers seems to be apropriate, but for the germans I usually stick with the "Masse statt Klasse" proverb (literally: masses instead of class; means quantity instead of quality). There is nothing more frustrating than to see a 270 point KingTiger get bogged or immobilized on the first few turns. Rather buy a cheaper Jagdpanzer and two Hetzers for the same money and if anything happens to one of them, well you still got two left. Another point would be my role in the scenario. If I am the defender, I think I would rather rely on quantity and cheap Volkssturm units than quality, but note that in my opinion (like Red Devils pointed out) crucial support units like Panzerschrecks or bazooka should always be veteran since the additional costs are only about 4 points. As mentioned above, the opinions differ and would say that there exists no general rule or agreement and your "shopping" strategy should depend on your opponent, map size, scenario lenght and combat role (attacker, defender, meeting engagement). Kepp those viewpoints coming in, P.S.: If this topic expands, it could be part of a FAQ. ------------------ "I am no fool!" Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USGrant Posted September 17, 2000 Share Posted September 17, 2000 The discussions in this thread are getting a little confused (and I think I started the problem with an earlier example). A number of posters mention purchase of a single veteran King Tiger vs. so many "normal" tanks. I think we need to compare like versus like. In other words, IF you ARE going to buy a King Tiger, should it be veteran or regular? The price difference might buy you an extra armored car, but certainly does not get a you second tank. This goes back to my point about the purchase points being too flat. You cannot buy "hordes" of extra units by dropping down an experience level or two. You can buy a few extra, which don't seem to make up for the compounded advantages of veterans. All IMHO of course. ------------------ USGrant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikeydz Posted September 17, 2000 Share Posted September 17, 2000 I guess you can say I'm the polar oppisite of Mr. Johnson. I tend to go with Veteran tanks supported by Regular infantry. I'll usually go with higher experiance support units, but the grunt platoons normally stay at Regular. In fact, I wouldn't even consider, given a choice, getting less than Veteran status for snipers. or anti-tank teams. Since these troop types have very limited firepower, I don't mind spending the extra points to help insure that every one of thier shots count. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Michael emrys Posted September 17, 2000 Share Posted September 17, 2000 Forgot to mention that when I buy sharpshooters I go up to the Crack level. I question whether the extra experience is worth the cost for other types of units, however. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daveman Posted September 17, 2000 Share Posted September 17, 2000 Veteran infantry are very nice, but the cost of upgrading a sizeable force like a company from regular to veteran can be pretty pricey, so I usually stick to regulars. But I have seen veteran infantry hold positions and throw back attackers where regulars would have pissed themselves and ran. I can usually afford the difference with tanks though. I play mostly small QBs where at most I can have 1-2 tanks and a veteran one makes a big differece. They're more accurate and seem to reload faster... and that makes a difference in tank duels where first hit usually wins the battle. ------------------ "You know our standing orders. Out of ammo become a bunker, out of commission become a pillbox, out of time... become heroes." - The Beast Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TelGerot Posted September 17, 2000 Share Posted September 17, 2000 My two cents... Generally speaking, I purchase units with a dynamic viewpoint, making sure that the experienced (veteran) or at the right places, while the regulars are in the safer regions of the map. Of course, in a QB or a blind scenario, you might not have the luxury to do this, sooo.... here's what I do in that case. I usually purchase regulars.... -but-... the lead units, ESPECIALLY in infantry, are always veterans. This goes for defense and offense, but mostly the latter because when it comes to simply -taking ground- a regular cannot do so, unless it is quite empty! A veteran unit will take the first few rounds from dug-in infantry located in a forest, and still move close enough to put their SMG's or grenades to work. As for tanks, this works slightly differently... the lead tank is the veteran, but he might be in the back of the map! The "lead" tank, in my strategies, is the one that can see the most vital areas of the map, the ones where the enemy will be most likely to pop up in. The reason why that tank is a veteran, is because (as many people pointed out in this thread) the spotting/aiming/accuracy is so much better... the few seconds you save with a veteran compared to a regular can be enough to get the first shot off, which will be more accurate because of the higher experience, which will be much more effecient in blasting the enemy into kibbles. Anyhow, that's my take on it! -If I had a signature, I do believe this is where it would be stamped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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