Radio Range?

[weapon2010]

 What was the effective radio range ?Were there different quality radios or all the same?What is being simulated when your not in radio contact to higher command?

[Michael Emrys]

1 hour ago, weapon2010 said:

 What was the effective radio range ?

It could vary considerably depending on intervening terrain and other factors.

1 hour ago, weapon2010 said:

Were there different quality radios or all the same?

There were several different types and their capabilities and performance could be very different. However, as far as CM goes, there are usually just one or two types in play most of the time.

1 hour ago, weapon2010 said:

 What is being simulated when your not in radio contact to higher command?

That depends. When a platoon HQ is in motion, it will be out of comms until it stops moving. Also, sometimes the radio will malfunction, is being blocked by terrain, or is simply out of range.

Michael

[geordietaf]

Or, you could be like my late father in law who was a company signaler in Italy with the Durham Light Infantry and got struck by lightning....

[kevinkin]

Not to diminish anything (especially here on Memorial Day) but the public would probably be surprised by a the number of accidental casualties in WWII (or any conflict).

When you place thousands and thousands of troops in mechanized things that move over land, sea and, air accidents tragically happen. Between '42 and 45 the US Air Corp suffered >13K deaths in accidents. These folks never had the chance to be heroes in the traditional sense. But they are heroes none the less. 

OK, back to the radio discussion. 

Kevin

http://www.taphilo.com/history/WWII/Loss-Figures-Aircraft-USA-Training.shtml

[Sublime]

Oh the number of accidental deaths on all sides but especially for the US (simply because the Army ballooned to 8.million men in about 4 years)

Is mind boggling and a lot more than some wars we fought.

[Michael Emrys]

6 hours ago, kevinkin said:

Between '42 and 45 the US Air Corp suffered >13K deaths in accidents.

Does anybody know how that compares to losses due to enemy action?

BTW, if I read it right, the 13,000 figure is only accidents in the continental US. There were also thousands of operational losses in theaters of war.

Michael

[Sublime]

Well i know Masters of the Air cites a figure of around 25 or 30k iirc. In KIA just for the 8th AF and probably also the 9th and any other air groups in the CBO on Germany. I know it is stressed and true that the 8th AF losses actually exceeded Marine KIAs for the entire Pacific campaign and being a bomber crewman was the deadliest profession besides being in a submarine in the Pacific if you were an American serviceman in WW2.

Of course this belies a lot of things. WIA is huge for example. Types of death or combat or living conditions. Though i do think its morbid to discuss worse ways to die but certain MOS make death more likely. If you lose a sub its about 50 or 60 men in that time. 10 men a B17. Etc.

 

[Michael Emrys]

I've read that the deadliest occupation during the war was merchant seaman.

Michael

[Sublime]

Hmm. This may be true. Of course I was referring to the US military. For Germany some.recently have revised the old claom UBoats were the deadliest arm and say the Luftwaffe as a pilot was deadlier. ( again Miller, Masters of the Air)

I have no clue on merchant seamen. Allied? Japanese or Axis?

If Allied of all nations?

[Michael Emrys]

1 hour ago, Sublime said:

If Allied of all nations?

Definitely Allied and maybe US only. Wish I could remember where I read that.

Michael

Found this: http://www.usmm.org/casualty.html

Merchant Marine led the list at 1 in 26 killed. Next worse was the USMC at 1 in 34. From another source Air Force was one in 38; I suppose that includes accidents.

Edited May 30, 2016 by Michael Emrys
Additional information

[Sublime]

Well I know Donald Miller in Masters of the Air most definitely has more than one source that according to him probes at least the USAAF in Europe lost more KIA than the entire Marine Corps lost in KIA in the Pacific.

My friend is reading the book - Ive recently cited specific pages. Ill ask him to either see it or if hes done for it back when i see him next ( you bet your ass im calling him now though emrys ) for the citations. Also Emrys I have the highest personal respect for your knowledge and assertions you make. Though that said the source you cited does preface before anything at the top "Mariners suffered the highest casualties of any US unit in WW2 but infortunately had no historian so casualty figures vary"

 

Edit - hes dwntwn but when he.s home in Everett he.ll call me. So a few hours or later Ill give you the sources for the USAAF vs Marine Corps statement. If you dont mind ( my friend has an interest but isnt a grog im gonna hafta walk him thru the getting cites for this ) ill pm you the cites for the Luftwaffe perhaps being more deadly than the Uboats according to a recent German ww2 historian and some of the other comments I made.

Emrys you know this book I keep mentioning about the 8th AF is currently being made right now as a series a la the Pacific or BoB ( ive thought about it and am sure it.ll be more like the Pacific. First the way the book its based on and two to tell the air war in Europe its really hard to do so following one unit. More likely one episodes about the Kriegies. Maybe a story line of a 17 crew is interleaved with a 47 pilot and or a 51 pilot. A German pilot being followed? Doubt it but it.d be awesome. Also I cant see at least one episode not being on Ploesti and there.ll have to be heavy mention of the 24s.₩

Edited May 30, 2016 by Sublime

[MOS:96B2P]

On 5/29/2016 at 11:37 PM, weapon2010 said:

 What was the effective radio range ?Were there different quality radios or all the same?What is being simulated when your not in radio contact to higher command?

In RL there were different radios of different ranges assigned to the appropriate place in the TOE.  I am not a radio grog but I noticed in the book Company Commander by Charles B MacDonald there are several references to the different radios that were used.  The SCR-300 that would keep the company in contact with the battalion, the 536 radio which seems was used by the platoon HQs? etc.  Where is @John Kettler at when you need him.

For game purposes the maps are small enough that I have never noticed range having an effect on the radios.  Also the in game artwork on all the US backpack radios are the same and the game does not depict the walkie-talkie type radio.  So one artwork for all nationality specific backpack radios which can always, in my experience, range the entire CM map.

As @Michael Emrys said if a team with a backpack radio is moving on foot (in the WWII titles & Shock Force) they will drop out of C2 until they halt.  In Black Sea they stay in contact while moving on foot.  If the RTO is KIA and the radio was not retrieved during buddy aid radio C2 will be lost. Also with vehicles, the vehicle's radio can be damaged and radio C2 to higher command will be lost that way.  If a unit is not in contact with higher command vertical information sharing is lost.   

   

        

[Michael Emrys]

34 minutes ago, Sublime said:

Well I know Donald Miller in Masters of the Air most definitely has more than one source that according to him probes at least the USAAF in Europe lost more KIA than the entire Marine Corps lost in KIA in the Pacific.

This source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties#Military_casualties_by_branch_of_service cites KIA figures as

Airforce: 88,119

USMC: 24,511

It doesn't break those figures down by theater, but I would hazard a rough guess that the MTO/ETO accounted for 65-70% of those cited. So yes, Miller is likely to be right.

Michael

[Michael Emrys]

25 minutes ago, MOS:96B2P said:

Also the in game artwork on all the US backpack radios are the same and the game does not depict the walkie-talkie type radio.

Well, heh, the backpack radio SCR-300 was called by the Army the Walkie-Talkie. The smaller hand-held radio SCR-536 that mistakenly gets widely called by that name was called the Handie-Talkie. You can find a discussion with pics here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walkie-talkie .

Michael

[MOS:96B2P]

3 minutes ago, Michael Emrys said:

Well, heh, the backpack radio SCR-300 was called by the Army the Walkie-Talkie. The smaller hand-held radio SCR-536 that mistakenly gets widely called by that name was called the Handie-Talkie. You can find a discussion with pics here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walkie-talkie .

Michael

Ah, thanks.  Good info.  The Handie-Talkie.  Would be cool if the game showed the artwork for this.  I think I have seen it on one of the splash screens somewhere.  CMBN maybe?  Thanks for the link. 

[Michael Emrys]

Just now, MOS:96B2P said:

Would be cool if the game showed the artwork for this

I concur. Maybe it's one of those things they might get around to...some day.

Michael

[Sublime]

6 hours ago, Michael Emrys said:

This source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties#Military_casualties_by_branch_of_service cites KIA figures as

Airforce: 88,119

USMC: 24,511

It doesn't break those figures down by theater, but I would hazard a rough guess that the MTO/ETO accounted for 65-70% of those cited. So yes, Miller is likely to be right.

Michael

Well yes Id definitely agree as to make up on the aerial losses per theater. The Brit bomber command also took horrendous casualties. Also at least from.what Ive read (and a large part of this is certainly better bombers with p51 escorts and cpmbat tested crews sprinkled in and also refined tactics versus England 1942) the US bomber crews seemed to find the German air defenses a bit more fearsome. This is all opinion of course but little things,  such as the comment from the bombardier to the pilot on the first a bomb mission (the pilot also flew the first USAAF combat mission to Rouen in 1942) as they were over to the target.  The B29 had flown straight and level for several minutes and he said something to the effect of " if this were Germany they.d have blown us out of the sky by now". This was also mentioned in a video documentary interview Ive seen of an Enola Gay crewman. Look at overall combat losses. ETO has almost 300k while PTO is what 140k?

Im glad I dont have to back up mu argument my moron friend still hasnt called.

[John Kettler]

MOS:96B2P

Taken from the excellent WW II Gyrene site. Strong recommend the year the entire article. Major point is that the Handiie-Talkie, used for intra company commo only, is AM and can't talk to the 

(Fair Use)

SCR-536 Radio range = 100 yards to one mile

As a communications tool between platoon leaders and company commanders, the SCR-536 was an innovative tool, but it was not a perfect solution by any means. There were many obstacles that hindered the ability to stay in contact using this set. Under good weather conditions with a clear line-of-sight, this radio usually functioned well. But its range was sometimes severely impacted by inclement weather, heavy vegetation, and other environmental factors. One of the most severe shortcomings of the handie-talkie was that it was not compatible with FM radios. Although it could operate on some of the frequencies of the TBY and TBX radio sets, the 536 did not use the same bands as the SCR-300 Walkie-Talkie radio. 

SCR-300 Radio Range = 3 miles (Could do 4 under good conditions)  This is the real Walkie-Talkie. Important points to note: More technically advanced and clear FM radio with 8000 Hz frequency range, as opposed to the single frequency of  the SCR-536. This radio can therefore talk to other FM radios in the 40-48 kHz band.

The SCR-300 was a backpack radio that allowed company and battalion commanders to maintain contact under mobile conditions. This radio set most often served in command groups where it was employed by trained radio operators, but it could be used by almost anyone with minimum training. Technical Manual 11-242 gave the following description of the set:

"Radio Set SCR-300-A is a low power, portable, frequency modulated radio receiver and transmitter powered by dry batteries. The set is designed for two-way voice communications over short ranges and is designed primarily for use by combat troops on foot."

Characteristics of the SCR-300 Radio

Weight (complete):  38.23 pounds Power supply:          BA-70 dry cell battery  Frequency:               FM 40,000-48,000 kilocycles Channels:                 40 available  Range:                     3 miles (long antenna)  Battery life:              8-12 hours

It is worth noting, and indeed is important, that I point out both are mobile radio systems, intended to support exactly such operations. From my reading, there is no technical issue keeping either from properly functioning while on the move. This isn't what your example shows, though. The only radio I've ever mentioned which couldn't be used on the move was the beast the US FOs had, which was so big it took 2 men to move it. If my hunch is right, then I think the game may be hamstringing the Americans who would otherwise be in Command, with radios down to the PL level.

Regards,

John Kettler

 

 

 

Edited May 31, 2016 by John Kettler

[Michael Emrys]

13 hours ago, Sublime said:

The Brit bomber command also took horrendous casualties.

I recently read that it was in the neighborhood of 50%. I'd rate that as horrendous.

Michael

Edited May 31, 2016 by Michael Emrys

[Michael Emrys]

4 hours ago, John Kettler said:

The only radio I've ever mentioned which couldn't be used on the move was the beast the US FOs had, which was so big it took 2 men to move it.

George Blackburn in The Guns of Normandy describes the British/Canadian set up. There, the radio remained under cover in a vehicle, usually a Universal Carrier, with the driver. The FOO and his assistant/bodyguard went forward to a point where the desired observation could be obtained and were connected back to the radio via a landline and handset. Seems to have worked well enough for them, but I imagine reeling up the cable in the event of a hasty bugout could be stressful. Maybe they just simply cut it in that circumstance, something that would not have brought joy to the SM's heart I expect.

Michael

[Sublime]

1 hour ago, Michael Emrys said:

I recently read that it was in the neighborhood of 50%. I'd rate that as horrendous.

Michael

Yes.  Ive read similar figures basically in the range of 4 out of 10 to 6 out of 10 didnt make it. 50 is right in the middle of that range and is probably most accurate imo with a hard figure in front of me (outside landscaping in boston)

[MOS:96B2P]

9 hours ago, John Kettler said:

<Snip> 

SCR-536 Radio range = 100 yards to one mile

As a communications tool between platoon leaders and company commanders, the SCR-536 was an innovative tool, but it was not a perfect solution by any means. There were many obstacles that hindered the ability to stay in contact using this set. Under good weather conditions with a clear line-of-sight, this radio usually functioned well. But its range was sometimes severely impacted by inclement weather, heavy vegetation, and other environmental factors. One of the most severe shortcomings of the handie-talkie was that it was not compatible with FM radios. Although it could operate on some of the frequencies of the TBY and TBX radio sets, the 536 did not use the same bands as the SCR-300 Walkie-Talkie radio. 

SCR-300 Radio Range = 3 miles (Could do 4 under good conditions)  This is the real Walkie-Talkie. Important points to note: More technically advanced and clear FM radio with 8000 Hz frequency range, as opposed to the single frequency of  the SCR-536. This radio can therefore talk to other FM radios in the 40-48 kHz band.

The SCR-300 was a backpack radio that allowed company and battalion commanders to maintain contact under mobile conditions. This radio set most often served in command groups where it was employed by trained radio operators, but it could be used by almost anyone with minimum training. Technical Manual 11-242 gave the following description of the set:

It is worth noting, and indeed is important, that I point out both are mobile radio systems, intended to support exactly such operations. From my reading, there is no technical issue keeping either from properly functioning while on the move. This isn't what your example shows, though. The only radio I've ever mentioned which couldn't be used on the move was the beast the US FOs had, which was so big it took 2 men to move it. If my hunch is right, then I think the game may be hamstringing the Americans who would otherwise be in Command, with radios down to the PL level.

 

Thanks @John Kettler good info.  I think the mobile reference means the radio can go with troops moving on foot but for practical purposes I think they would stop behind cover to actually talk on the WWII radios.  Even in the 1980s when I was in I don't recall the RTO and the boss moving and using the radio at the same time.  In CMBS the troops have head sets probably making it somewhat easier to communicate while moving.  I understand why BFC has it portrayed the way it is.  Thanks again for the info.  

[John Kettler]

MOS:96B2P

I've seen footage from the Vietnam War in which the CO is on the horn, on the move and with the RTO mere feet away. I can't say I've seen anything like that for WW II, but then from what I've seen there's precious little footage of GIs  advancing, never mind in battle. BFC may be entirely right based on information it has, but from a technical standpoint, I don't see an issue. The material I dug up does show the Handie-Talkie didn't like heavy rain, and packed it in until things got dryer after the storm.  Here is a great piece on the SCR-300. As you can see from the pics of it in use and the complete system image, there is enough cord to let the WW II walk and talk. One noteworthy item is that the operator had his own headset which was essentially a set of earbuds, allowing him to listen constantly. If you really want to get into the SCR-300, TM 11-242 Radio Set  SCR-300-A is the thing to see. There, in Table II, I found confirmation of my handset cord length argument. It is 43 inches long.  

Michael Emrys,

A most sensible scheme--provided the UC can get to the FO!Not everyplace was tracked vehicle accessible, Italy in mountains during the rainy season being a prime example. Here is the Beast I mentioned, and it's with a full US FO team. It can't be used on the move because it's so heavy it takes two men to carry it: one with the radio and the other with the battery. Image is US Army official. A useful piece on FOs is taken from one of the wartime Combat Lessons and appears on E4 Forever. One shocker was the strong recommendation for 12 two-man observer teams per battalion! There was no problem with a corporal running one, either. TM 11-615 Radio Sets SCR 609-A-And-B And SCR 610-A-And-B is the pertinent pub for this radio, which was typically on a jeep, but could be and was dismounted for FO work.

 

Regards,

John Kettler

Edited May 31, 2016 by John Kettler

[Michael Emrys]

50 minutes ago, John Kettler said:

...this radio, which was typically on a jeep, but could be and was dismounted for FO work.

Interestingly enough, I am presently rereading Harry Yeide's book on the Mech Cavalry where he occasionally mentions a team removing their radio from their jeep to use it in a place where even a jeep could not go. I expect it was this model.

Michael

[MOS:96B2P]

1 hour ago, John Kettler said:

<Snip> wartime Combat Lessons and appears on E4 Forever.  <Snip> 

Thanks John.  This is a great link.  I bookmarked it.