Flail tank info and combat use resource.

[John Kettler]

In reading Chapter 5 of Ken Ford's wonderful Assault on Germany: The Battle of Geilenkirchen, there is an extensive discussion of the use of flail tanks/Sherman Crabs. It plainly states there that flailing is done at a speed of advance of 1.5 mph! I've not used these AFVs yet myself, but I strongly suspect that the in-game ones are, relatively speaking, clearing mines faster than was historically the case. Also of note is that such AFVs beat up the wet ground so thoroughly it turned into a morass for the following tanks, stripping the infantry of the accompanying armor. Oops. This information, along with other fascinating tidbits, should provide real food for thought. I did turn up this short vid on using the flail tank/Crab to breach a minefield, but it shows nothing on how to actually issue orders to one, merely the results of procedures employed. Could someone describe how you actually use them in terms of issuing commands? Am way too tired to attempt any sort of test.
 

Regards,

John Kettler 

[Sublime]

It ssimple. You have the tank. Theres a flail on or off toggle. You turn it on and proceed. ISTR the tanks gun etc is not able to be used when flail is. Or maybe only frontally. I dont remember if theres a speed limit imposed or not. They do clear mines very effectively though. And they do not deform or screw up the terrain for follow on units. But out of the many issues that need to be adressed to continue this series around Berlin and Stalingrad Id say its low on what needs to be looked at. Id say bugs and a reevaluation of how elements of MOUT are handled, maybe points spent to fortify houses and or put atgs in houses along with perhaps points being able to be spent to increase field defense and maybe like buying commo wire that has a small chance of arty taking out a wire that you can string to a position in setup. Say one buy buys 3 lines. Field telephones provided same benefits of radio without some of the negatives. Like any unit can use it, etc. Perhaps units using field telephones are able to cll in arty but only on TRPs or maybe anywhere but with serious penalties for accuracy and time unless its a TRP..

[Anthony P.]

The turret gets turned 180° to keep the barrel from being damaged by detonated mines. IIRC the tank is set to a single, slower speed when the flail is going.

[MOS:96B2P]

11 hours ago, John Kettler said:

<Snip>  Could someone describe how you actually use them in terms of issuing commands? Am way too tired to attempt any sort of test.  <Snip>

For what it is worth here is my current Flail Tank Drill: 

1. Provide security for the flail tank. 

2. Ensure at least two open A/S between infantry and flail area.

3. Consider having the flail tank Pop Smoke¹.

4. Give flail tank Clear Mines² order through the suspected minefield.

5. A path should be created of green signs with a white X. All mines detonated.  

Notes: 1) Wait until next turn for smoke to develop before advancing. A US Sherman Crab can Pop Smoke 3 times.  2) The Clear Mines order will auto button tank & rotate turret to the rear. This order can be activated anywhere, anytime.

Some general notes as I understand minefields.  Any advice or corrections are welcome. 

Engineers can Mark Mines in the same action spot as the mines or from an adjacent action spot. 

If engineers Mark Mines from an adjacent action spot they will crawl into the mine A/S when mine marking is completed.

The more eyes in an engineer team the easier to spot mines.  (5 man team finds mines easier than a 2 man team)  I think.

Veteran engineers, that are not suppressed, can mark one minefield action spot in 2-3 minutes.

Engineers can most reliably and safely locate unidentified minefields using the Slow command.  

Marking a minefield substantially reduces the chance of triggering a mine for infantry traversing the minefield.

Antitank minefields can be marked but there is no effect. Infantry can traverse them without risk and vehicles don't benefit from marking.

Mines cannot be placed on bridges.  They can go in the river bottom under the bridge but have no effect. 

US Breech teams contain engineers and can also mark minefields.  

Minefields can be neutralized by heavy artillery (150mm+), if it scores a direct hit.

Minefields can be neutralized by a blast from a demo charge if there is a blastable obstacle (wire) in the action spot.

Anti-personnel mines do not strongly affect vehicles.

Red sign with a skull and crossbones = Active non-marked minefield.

Off white sign with a skull and crossbones = A marked minefield. 

Green sign with a white X = Neutralized minefield (all mines detonated)

 

Edited April 22, 2016 by MOS:96B2P

[[MyIS] Buffpuff]

24 minutes ago, MOS:96B2P said:

For what it is worth here is my current Flail Tank Drill: 

1. Provide security for the flail tank. 

2. Ensure at least two open A/S between infantry and flail area.

3. Consider having the flail tank Pop Smoke¹.

4. Give flail tank Clear Mines² order through the suspected minefield.

5. A path should be created of green signs with a white X. All mines detonated.  

Notes: 1) Wait until next turn for smoke to develop before advancing. A US Sherman Crab can Pop Smoke 3 times.  2) The Clear Mines order will auto button tank & rotate turret to the rear. This order can be activated anywhere, anytime.

Some general notes as I understand minefields.  Any advice or corrections are welcome. 

Engineers can Mark Mines in the same action spot as the mines or from an adjacent action spot. 

If engineers Mark Mines from an adjacent action spot they will crawl into the mine A/S when mine marking is completed.

The more eyes in an engineer team the easier to spot mines.  (5 man team finds mines easier than a 2 man team)  I think.

Veteran engineers, that are not suppressed, can mark one minefield action spot in 2-3 minutes.

Engineers can most reliably and safely locate unidentified minefields using the Slow command.  

Marking a minefield substantially reduces the chance of triggering a mine for infantry traversing the minefield.

Antitank minefields can be marked but there is no effect. Infantry can traverse them without risk and vehicles don't benefit from marking.

Mines cannot be placed on bridges.  They can go in the river bottom under the bridge but have no effect. 

US Breech teams contain engineers and can also mark minefields.  

Minefields can be neutralized by heavy artillery (150mm+), if it scores a direct hit.

Minefields can be neutralized by a blast from a demo charge if there is a blastable obstacle (wire) in the action spot.

Anti-personnel mines do not strongly affect vehicles.

Red sign with a skull and crossbones = Active non-marked minefield.

Off white sign with a skull and crossbones = A marked minefield. 

Green sign with a white X = Neutralized minefield (all mines detonated)

 

Now that's some good info. I always wondered what the green sign with the white X meant. Now I know!!! Now do you have videos of all this stuff

[Sublime]

AP mines dont affect vehicles..except jeeps which are easily immobilized and or KO.d by them.

[Anthony P.]

Really? My experience has been that all soft skinned vehicles that run over AP mines get knocked out. And running over AP mines with tanks causes immense damage to the tracks.

[MOS:96B2P]

6 hours ago, [MyIS] Buffpuff said:

<Snip> Now do you have videos of all this stuff

LOL No.  I have not invested the time to learn how to make and post videos.  I'm lucky I can do screenshots.  @SLIM is the video guy.  

[MOS:96B2P]

3 hours ago, Sublime said:

AP mines dont affect vehicles..except jeeps which are easily immobilized and or KO.d by them.

 

3 hours ago, Anthony P. said:

Really? My experience has been that all soft skinned vehicles that run over AP mines get knocked out. And running over AP mines with tanks causes immense damage to the tracks.

Thanks for pointing this out.  I need to update my info on AP Mines and vehicles.  In the interest of science I loaded up my test map and drove a Sherman tank, M8 armored car and a jeep into an AP minefield.  All three vehicles were immobilized.  The tank moved three Action Spots (A/S) through the AP minefield before being immobilized and the jeep & M8 about 2 A/S.  

I think the depth of the AP minefield is key. In some PBEM games I have seen OpFor tanks drive through AP mines and keep going giving the impression that AP mines had little effect on them.  But of course those minefields were one A/S deep and the mines have a cumulative effect.  In my test the AP mines were five A/S deep.    

[John Kettler]

This discussion confuses me. On several levels. AP mines would seem not to have the ability to take out a tank track, but I think there are several ways to argue this. A Schu-mine 42 has 7.1 oz of TNT, nearly half a pound. That is hardly inconsequential. In the limit, I'd expect it to take out at least one tire, but likely several, in one blast.  The dreaded S-mine has only slightly less, 6.4 oz, and contrary to what we've seen a zillion times in war movies, downward pressure alone (not stepping off the mine after first pushing down on the prongs and then having it fire) is all it takes to set it off. Again, this puts nearly half a pound of TNT, this time with lots of metal frags, too, directly beneath not just a tire, but probably knocking out multiple tires on both sides of a jeep or truck. Additionally, there is, I think, a strong likelihood of a crew casualty/casualties from the attendant cloud of frags, frags a Schu-mine 42 doesn't produce.

This is where we could really use engineers and physicists! Are the listed TNT quantities, given a well-tamped contact detonation, sufficient to break a real world heavy (D9) Caterpillar track? Has anyone ever encountered data on the effects of small tamped charges against tank tracks? If so, what type and from when? How does the game model the strength of a tank track in calculating what happens when an AP mine goes off under it? Also, does BFC discretely model the specific interaction between a particular (or is it generic?) AP mine and a defined track? In theory and based on different engineering approaches--wet/dry pin, for starters, not all tracks are created equal and so should vary considerably in terms of their survivability chances. For example, what would assuredly break the track of a Panzer IV might not do much of anything to that of a King Tiger. How can I say that? Consider the famous KV-2 at Raseiniai. There, in the all-out effort to kill the tank, German Pioneers crept in at night and set one or more demo charges (likely, the go to 2.2 lb Sprengbuechse) under (in that V where track meets ground, presumably) the tracks, but when the charges went off, all that resulted were essentially chunks knocked off the tracks, but with same very much still functional. This outcome might be the result of the track being under only static load, as opposed to the dynamic load the track is under on a moving tank. But certainly, a big factor has to lie in the massive track links, too. I'd say there simply wasn't enough oomph to overstress them or even the linkage between them.

In light of these and other factors, I find myself more and more open to the seemingly impossible effects of AP mines on tanks we see being reported here in CMFB. If AP mines can really break a tank track and Immobilize as a result, then in a sense it would appear that the real value of AT mines is not just in instant Immobilization but the associated damage to various tank systems and the crew. In turn, this would greatly increase the likelihood the crew would not stay in the tank and fight on. I would also observe that if we deem things like the Bar mine with its tilt rod fuze to be in play, then we are now talking about full width tank vulnerability, much of which means a detonation directly beneath the weakly armored floor of the fighting compartment!

Things to think about, I believe.

Regards,

John kettler

 

[Sublime]

MOS when I did tests in the past and found out tanks moving slow over AT mines wouldnt even get immobilized if hitting a mine, just minor track dmg vs a KO or m Kill if they were going faster. BFC fixed the issue but it doesnt mean it changed how speed affects mines. Its certainly evidemt in how often infantry trips AP with likelihood increasing with troop speed. If you ran the same tests with faster moving vehicles you may see KOs on the jeeps from AP and track dmg on the tank as before.

I certainly saw an MG jeep KO.d by AP mines in Baraque de Fraiture (and it was mine lol. Dumbest move order eva)

[Michael Emrys]

26 minutes ago, John Kettler said:

But certainly, a big factor has to lie in the massive track links, too. I'd say there simply wasn't enough oomph to overstress them or even the linkage between them.

In the case of the Soviets and some others, not only were the track shoes massive, they were designed in a way that offers less resistance to the blast compared to the track shoes on, say, American tanks like the Sherman. Just how much that effects the outcome I can't say, but to my eye it looks like one factor.

Michael

[Michael Emrys]

14 minutes ago, Sublime said:

Its certainly evidemt in how often infantry trips AP with likelihood increasing with troop speed.

Yeah, but that might be assumed to be due to the soldiers being less careful about where they put their feet down.

Michael

[John Kettler]

Michael Emrys,

Odd, for I would've thought the Russian tracks far more likely to trap blast, what with the deep spudding, than the relatively smooth US/US supplied tank tracks. Am I missing something here?

KV-2 tracks

Sherman (late war w/grousers)

Regards,

John Kettler

[Michael Emrys]

24 minutes ago, John Kettler said:

Am I missing something here?

Maybe. See the vents on the Soviet shoe compared to the American items, which are entirely closed?

Michael

[Sublime]

Emrys,

Just as a jeep driving slow that trips a bouncing betty will probably stop driving immediately by choice or not versus a vehicle driving fast and setting a string of them off?

[Michael Emrys]

You can see what I am talking about on this KV-1. I note that the open slots do not appear to exist on the T-34 though, so the practice was not universal.

Michael

Edit: I see the picture did not reproduce, but you can see it here: 

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=3203823

Edited April 23, 2016 by Michael Emrys

[Michael Emrys]

6 minutes ago, Sublime said:

Emrys,

Just as a jeep driving slow that trips a bouncing betty will probably stop driving immediately by choice or not versus a vehicle driving fast and setting a string of them off?

Sounds plausible to me.

Michael

[Sublime]

I mean its all conjecture of course. And i have a feeling a mine bursts are modelled the same as grenade bursts on infantry in the game. This is wild conjecture but the effects, sound, and size of explosion all fit.

[John Kettler]

Michael Emrys,

I believe your "vents" are simply slots in the track for the drive sprocket teeth to engage.

Regards,

John Kettler

[MOS:96B2P]

11 hours ago, Sublime said:

<Snip>  how speed affects mines. Its certainly evidemt in how often infantry trips AP with likelihood increasing with troop speed. If you ran the same tests with faster moving vehicles you may see KOs on the jeeps from AP and track dmg on the tank as before.  I certainly saw an MG jeep KO.d by AP mines in Baraque de Fraiture (and it was mine lol. Dumbest move order eva)

I ran more repetitions of the test with Slow, Hunt and Fast.  Jeeps were often destroyed on all three type of movement orders.  On Hunt the Sherman tank stopped on the first explosion while it was still operational.  On Slow and Fast the Sherman continued to drive until it was completely immobilized.   So a Sherman tank can sometimes drive through a 1 A/S and 2 A/S AP minefields and remain operational but with reduced mobility.   

[Sublime]

Interesting. Thanks for taking the time.

[Michael Emrys]

13 hours ago, John Kettler said:

I believe your "vents" are simply slots in the track for the drive sprocket teeth to engage.

Probably so. The question remains whether they also function as I suggest and to what extent to they provide any additional protection against mines, especially AP mines which are of marginal effect anyway; further, are they modeled this way in the game? In the end, it seems like a pretty esoteric question and I am skeptical that BFC would bother with it, but they have surprised us before.

Michael

[Sublime]

I have a VERY strong suspicion AP mines are treated like a grenade going off in game with the caveat that to be set off by infantry theres at least one def .casualty.

If you look at the explosions they look and sound exactly the same between mines and grenades... its definite to me the AP mines are just generic representations. Its not like they modelled bouncing bettys or s mines or whatever AP the Allies used. All mines are equal in CM