Soviet SMGs II

[LukeFF]

Sgt Joch - firing a bolt gun without taking it off the shoulder is not hard, it is just a matter of a little training. 

 

It heavily depends on the action of the rifle and far less on the training of the shooter. Mausers and Mosins are frankly clumsy rifles to try to cycle while shouldered while yes, the Lee-Enfield is a piece of cake. 

Edited September 1, 2015 by LukeFF

[poesel]

Yep, I think what's reflected here is that even "open ground" isn't open ground.  And the targets aren't necessarily standing, some are kneeling and some are prone.  At a closer range, the spotting would be more comprehensive but out at 180m it seems like only a subset of the shooters sees a subset of the targets at any given time so that reduces the ROF accordingly.

 

So next thing might be to elevate the firing position slightly to give more preferential LOS and place the hapless targets on dirt, pavement, etc...

 

I suggest to not focus on ROF. That will only sidetrack you. Test one thing and then the other.

Would you publish your setup please?

 

@c3k - yes, real world data would come in handy. Have any?

[JasonC]

Some rough "range-based" accuracy benchmarks from the zeroing procedure for the PPsH -

 

Zeroing is done at 50 meters range with the sight set on the 200 meter setting.

Bench or sandbag rest is used.  The target size is 8 by 12 inches, roughly a piece of paper.

4 round bursts are fired, and "walked" to the paper by adjusting the sight, not the point of aim.

When 3 out of 4 rounds hit the paper, the weapon is zeroed.

 

Short range shots may be expected to be up to 4 inches high.

The expected dispersion amounts to roughly 5 inches radius in 50 meters, or a width of 10 minutes of arc.

And that refers not to all shots but to 3 out of 4 from a 4 round burst.

For comparison, the expected spread of a military bolt rifle is about 2 inches at 100 or 2 minutes of arc.

(That doesn't count as particularly accurate; sniper rifles are 1 MOA or less weapons).

 

A (quoted, translated, extract etc) manual describes an "effective zone of fire" at 250 meters as being 0.7 by 0.7 meters (about 28 inches), and from the above that would appear to be a bench rested, short burst figure for the inherent weapon dispersion.  Training emphasized firing the weapon from all stances, accompanying movement in different roles (attack, defense etc) and types of terrain.  Total weapon familiarization time was 8 to 10 hours on such courses.  Russian tactical use of the PPsH from Stalingrad on stressed "hugging" enemy positions as close as 50 meters, thereby maximizing the firepower of the SMG, avoiding enemy artillery, and quickly transitioning to grenade assault.

 

FWIW...

Edited September 1, 2015 by JasonC

[Sgt Joch]

Some rough "range-based" accuracy benchmarks from the zeroing procedure for the PPsH -

 

Zeroing is done at 50 meters range with the sight set on the 200 meter setting.

Bench or sandbag rest is used.  The target size is 8 by 12 inches, roughly a piece of paper.

4 round bursts are fired, and "walked" to the paper by adjusting the sight, not the point of aim.

When 3 out of 4 rounds hit the paper, the weapon is zeroed.

 

Short range shots may be expected to be up to 4 inches high.

The expected dispersion amounts to roughly 5 inches radius in 50 meters, or a width of 10 minutes of arc.

And that refers not to all shots but to 3 out of 4 from a 4 round burst.

For comparison, the expected spread of a military bolt rifle is about 2 inches at 100 or 2 minutes of arc.

(That doesn't count as particularly accurate; sniper rifles are 1 MOA or less weapons).

 

A (quoted, translated, extract etc) manual describes an "effective zone of fire" at 250 meters as being 0.7 by 0.7 meters (about 28 inches), and from the above that would appear to be a bench rested, short burst figure for the inherent weapon dispersion.  Training emphasized firing the weapon from all stances, accompanying movement in different roles (attack, defense etc) and types of terrain.  Total weapon familiarization time was 8 to 10 hours on such courses.  Russian tactical use of the PPsH from Stalingrad on stressed "hugging" enemy positions as close as 50 meters, thereby maximizing the firepower of the SMG, avoiding enemy artillery, and quickly transitioning to grenade assault.

 

FWIW...

 

 

very useful. thanks Jason.

[JonS]

The point of fire control orders is to develop a sustainable, effective rate of fire. Not to just see how quickly you can burn through your ammo or to set world records.

[poesel]

Sorry to dig this up again but being (again) on the receiving end of Soviet SMGs one thought came up:

HE is nerfed a bit to accommodate the bunching up of pixeltroopers so shouldn't there be a similar mechanic for SMGs?
Obviously any spray&pray type weapon would have an advantage against high density targets. Maybe that is causing the perceived effectiveness?

[BletchleyGeek]

Sorry to dig this up again but being (again) on the receiving end of Soviet SMGs one thought came up:

HE is nerfed a bit to accommodate the bunching up of pixeltroopers so shouldn't there be a similar mechanic for SMGs?
Obviously any spray&pray type weapon would have an advantage against high density targets. Maybe that is causing the perceived effectiveness?

I made similar questions and observations on the thread discussing the hard coded range limitation on some weapons, a couple of days ago. 

I do think some changes could be done on the effect of such weapons at longer ranges - which would indeed result in "nerfing" lethality, and possibly "buffing" suppression.