81mm on map mortar, can't use visual spotter??

[PanzerShrimp]

Not too sure if this is intended but, when using ON MAP 81mm mortars (or mortars in general?), it seems to make zero difference if the spotter is in shouting distance (mortar section HQ) or a random squad leader on the other side of the map using radio.

 

 

They both have the same estimated delay when calling in fire,I would have thoguht a mortar spotter in shouting distance would call them in a lot quicker then someone else on the other side on the map via C2/Radio.  Am I doing something wrong?

 

 

If this is indeed intended I see no point in using on map 81mm unless its for direct fire which im yet to try out, please confirm that it's intended or I'm doing something wrong.

 

 

And while on mortars....

 

-How viable is using 81mm mortars as direct fire? I'm playing the German campaign and have so far "thought" of it too risky to use this way especially as im attacking, about to risk it and try anyway though...tips?

 

-If I use a pre planned fire mission, or even a 10 - 15 minute fire mission.... is there a way to add time to delay it even more like in CMx1? confused to why you would not be able too, adjust fire in general seems pretty pointless from my experiance thus far    but im still pretty newbishg to CMx2,

 

-Spotting rounds are not counted as rounds for the fire mission im guessing?

 

Thx.

 

 

[Baneman]

Addressing 3 points briefly :

 

The game has not coded a difference in time delay to cater for the difference in communication methods ie. radio or voice.

I believe it has been asked for in the past, but is obviously low down in the to-do list.

 

On-map mortars in direct fire mode are effective and deadly - They are probably used this way more than for indirect fire.

 

Spotting rounds are indeed counted off the ammunition total.

Edited June 29, 2015 by Baneman

[PanzerShrimp]

Addressing 3 points briefly :

 

The game has not coded a difference in time delay to cater for the difference in communication methods ie. radio or voice.

I believe it has been asked for in the past, but is obviously low down in the to-do list.

 

On-map mortars in direct fire mode are effective and deadly - They are probably used this way more than for indirect fire.

 

Spotting rounds are indeed counted off the ammunition total.

 

 

Quick - 2-4 rounds

Short - 6-12 rounds

Medium - 12-18 rounds

Long - 20-28 rounds

Maximum - exhausts ammo supply

 

from the Manual...

 

So if I ordered a quick fire mission....and it took 3 spotting rounds.... fire for effect would be 1 round?

Edited June 29, 2015 by PanzerShrimp

[umlaut]

I would have thoguht a mortar spotter in shouting distance would call them in a lot quicker then someone else on the other side on the map via C2/Radio. 

 

I agree. In CM1 you could use a HQ unit peeking out of a treeline or over a ridge as "direct" (no time delay) spotter for a mortar team placed safely behind cover - but within shouting distance. Unfortunately not in CM2 - though I still hope for this to be introduced again.

 

In my experience, mortar teams in direct fire are still often killed or surpressed by the enemy units they are trying to target. And even though it doesn´t happen as often as in the earlier versions of CM2, they still occationally choose to fire their hand guns with or instead of their mortar.

Edited June 29, 2015 by umlaut

[womble]

Not too sure if this is intended but, when using ON MAP 81mm mortars (or mortars in general?), it seems to make zero difference if the spotter is in shouting distance (mortar section HQ) or a random squad leader on the other side of the map using radio.

 

 

They both have the same estimated delay when calling in fire,I would have thoguht a mortar spotter in shouting distance would call them in a lot quicker then someone else on the other side on the map via C2/Radio.  Am I doing something wrong?

It's a shame, and I'm sure (but apparently wrong) that different spotters used to have different time delays for firing, dependent on where in the chain of communications they were, but that's unfortunately not modelled.

 

 

I see no point in using on map 81mm unless its for direct fire which im yet to try out, please confirm that it's intended or I'm doing something wrong.

There are a few reasons to use on-map mortars for spotter-mediated shoots:

 

• You can set up linear and area missions
• You can use them from out of LOS but still have the option of bringing them into danger if you want to use them for direct lay; electing for all off-map mediums makes that decision for you before the game starts
• Some maps are large enough that off-map mediums are out of range of portions of them. On-map mediums can advance to cover the whole map, terrain and enemy resistance permitting.
• Dispersal is a function of range. If your on-map mortars are close (but still in defilade, therefore safe) their rounds will be better clustered around their target.
• An off-map module can only fire one mission at a time. Taking 2 on-map mortars means you can fire 2 one-tube missions at once.

   

-How viable is using 81mm mortars as direct fire? I'm playing the German campaign and have so far "thought" of it too risky to use this way especially as im attacking, about to risk it and try anyway though...tips?

You have to be careful, is all. There is a good example of it being done in the "Gamey SOB challenge" threads over in the CMFI forums. An 81mm ranged in on an HMG team next to another 81mm. It shows you the effectiveness of the mortar at longish range. If you can find a nice piece of cover or concealment, you can improve your unit's chance of survival. Medium mortars are a fair bit easier to spot than light mortars, but are better at long range. They outrange HMGs. In the Russian environment, if you can find a stone wall to shoot over, you'll have some hard cover from return small arms fire, otherwise you probably want to stick to the margins of woods to try and remain unseen, though you may have overhead cover obstrcting LoF. Or you can just "snipe" from 500m-plus where most return small arms fire will be ineffective.

 

-If I use a pre planned fire mission, or even a 10 - 15 minute fire mission.... is there a way to add time to delay it even more like in CMx1? confused to why you would not be able too, adjust fire in general seems pretty pointless from my experiance thus far    but im still pretty newbishg to CMx2,

The penultimate step of setting up a support mission allows you to assign a delay of 0, 5, 10 or 15 minutes, but once you've hit "Confirm", you're down to using "Adjust Mission"

 

If you use "Adjust Mission" at the earliest opportunity (I think during the "Preparing" phase; it's not available during "Receiving"), you can retarget the mission on exactly the same coordinates and it'll push back the delivery time. Adjusting once Spotting rounds start to fall will mean you've wasted a few rounds (or, if you'd rather, used a few rounds as harrassing fire), but will delay the mission. Against a live opponent though, you'd better not expect any units to be in the target area by the time the adjustment takes hold and you allow FFE (by not doing another adjustment). Adjusting a short mission once rounds start to fall is largely pointless, because the adjustment will not take effect before the guns stop firing. A very useful way to use adjusted fire is to have a large (slow to call) mission shooting at a low tube count and a low rate. A German 150mm module firing 2 tubes at "Light" lasts (IIRC) for 50 (fifty) minutes of FFE. In an hour's game, you could set up a pre-planned mission with a delay of 10 minutes, and as long as you keep the FO safe, you can "walk" the fire round the map, pulverising things with a couple of minutes' delay. Add some TRPs, so you don't even have to bring the FO out of defilade, and you can walk fire around even the far side of a built-up area that nobody has LOS to.

 

-Spotting rounds are not counted as rounds for the fire mission im guessing?

 

 

Quick - 2-4 rounds

[snip]

 

So if I ordered a quick fire mission....and it took 3 spotting rounds.... fire for effect would be 1 round?

I'm not sure about an on-map mission, because that's likely to be a single tube, but with a multi-tube offmap mission, the actual round count is per tube, so the short mission from a 4-tube module would be 8-16 rounds. Every tube will fire at least one FFE round, and if the spotting rounds are counted against that total, you'll still get 5-13 rounds of FFE.

 

 

 

 

In my experience, mortar teams in direct fire are still often killed or surpressed by the enemy units they are trying to target. And even though it doesn´t happen as often as in the earlier versions of CM2, they still occationally choose to fire their hand guns with or instead of their mortar.

I'd suggest that using your mortars from further away or better hard cover would change that experience.

[umlaut]

I'd suggest that using your mortars from further away or better hard cover would change that experience.

 

Well, last time was a (60mm?) team behind bocage tageting an AT gun from about 500 meters. Still they began by using their small arms, then got surpressed by the AT that spotted them. But as I said, it doesnt happen nearly as much as before.

[womble]

Well, last time was a (60mm?) team behind bocage tageting an AT gun from about 500 meters. Still they began by using their small arms, then got surpressed by the AT that spotted them. But as I said, it doesnt happen nearly as much as before.

That is weird. If they weren't a mortar team, you wouldn't want them firing their M1 Carbines at that range anyway! I've seen the small arms give the game away at close (less than 100m) range, but looks like that was probably some kind of fluke or outlier. A weird combination makes me think I'd prefer the light mortar to be trying for the ATG from closer in than that, though (in an ideal situation); the chances of the mortar getting suppression on the ATG before the ATG spots and suppresses the mortar are increased. So long as the crew don't go popping off with their carbines...

[Bulletpoint]

When I started playing, I almost only used indirect fire, thinking mortars would be super vulnerable firing directly.  But they are not.

 

Range means a lot for spotting. And a LOT for survivability if they do get spotted. So you want to keep your direct fire mortar far away from the target. I find that minimises the risk of return fire. 500-1000 metres seems to work well for the 60mm.

 

If you do start to take fire from a HMG or get bracketed by an infantry gun, then give the "hide" order as soon as you can. With a bit of luck, you'll drop off the radar and be able to sneak out of there next turn.

[kevinkin]

Nice thread on mortar tactics. You guys have any thoughts on how the AI handles them as they move along with others within their AI group? I suppose you can assign them to a specific AI group and use orders to move the mortars into the right terrain giving them the best cover and LOS. Tedious, but might be well worth it.

Kevin

[womble]

Nice thread on mortar tactics. You guys have any thoughts on how the AI handles them as they move along with others within their AI group? I suppose you can assign them to a specific AI group and use orders to move the mortars into the right terrain giving them the best cover and LOS. Tedious, but might be well worth it.

Kevin

Yeah, in a scenario, you can try and use them effectively in that manner.

[Apocal]

AFAICT, spotting rounds don't count against the FFE round count.

[PanzerShrimp]

 

The penultimate step of setting up a support mission allows you to assign a delay of 0, 5, 10 or 15 minutes, but once you've hit "Confirm", you're down to using "Adjust Mission"

 

If you use "Adjust Mission" at the earliest opportunity (I think during the "Preparing" phase; it's not available during "Receiving"), you can retarget the mission on exactly the same coordinates and it'll push back the delivery time. Adjusting once Spotting rounds start to fall will mean you've wasted a few rounds (or, if you'd rather, used a few rounds as harrassing fire), but will delay the mission. Against a live opponent though, you'd better not expect any units to be in the target area by the time the adjustment takes hold and you allow FFE (by not doing another adjustment). Adjusting a short mission once rounds start to fall is largely pointless, because the adjustment will not take effect before the guns stop firing. A very useful way to use adjusted fire is to have a large (slow to call) mission shooting at a low tube count and a low rate. A German 150mm module firing 2 tubes at "Light" lasts (IIRC) for 50 (fifty) minutes of FFE. In an hour's game, you could set up a pre-planned mission with a delay of 10 minutes, and as long as you keep the FO safe, you can "walk" the fire round the map, pulverising things with a couple of minutes' delay. Add some TRPs, so you don't even have to bring the FO out of defilade, and you can walk fire around even the far side of a built-up area that nobody has LOS to.

 

 

.

 

But you can't adjust mission unless your spotter has LOS? So how will this work?

 

I tried this and I couldnt adjust the pre planned fire mission as it required the spotter to have LOS?

Edited July 1, 2015 by PanzerShrimp

[womble]

But you can't adjust mission unless your spotter has LOS? So how will this work?

 

I tried this and I couldnt adjust the pre planned fire mission as it required the spotter to have LOS?

Well, sure you do. You can "only" walk the fire around in areas where you've got LOS unless you also have TRPs. "...keep the FO safe..." doesn't necessarily mean keeping him in defilade. But put a brace of TRPs at the back of a town and you can use them to shell the rear areas, having shelled the centre with the pre-planned and then the front edge by using the FO's eyeballs. You can fire line or area missions that use a point within one TRP's 50m radius for one reference point, and another TRP's area covering the other end of the line/edge of the circle.

 

To keep the FO safe, give him a tight, circular Cover Arc, and maneuver him carefully, using Slow from defilade/100% concealment into his OPs where he might possibly be seen by the enemy, but be sure to have those OPs be providing good concealment.