Guest Big Time Software Posted June 17, 1999 Share Posted June 17, 1999 Yup, eight big ones for you! Including the first ever winter shots!! www.battlefront.com/products/worldwar/cm/cmshots_idx.html Enjoy! Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Lokesa Posted June 17, 1999 Share Posted June 17, 1999 I like Nice shots, I've always had a soft spot in my heart for tanks with schuertzen (or however it's spelled) they just look so freakin cool. And those trees laden with snow look great. Another detail I like is the extra track sections on your tanks, nice touch. There's nothing you can really do about the angular look to terrain is there? It's not bad, much better than the days of yore but still there Am curious what set off the fire in the winter shot. Large HE blast? Oh, in the same picture there is a knocked out sherman, looks great, obvious at a glance that it's nonfunctional. Is it a leftover from a previous battle? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PatB_TGN Posted June 17, 1999 Share Posted June 17, 1999 Those shots look really good. Nice work and thanks for the teaser -Patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted June 17, 1999 Share Posted June 17, 1999 Thanks The "angular" aspect of the terrain is unavoidable. The more polygons, the higher resolution, but exponentially lower the framerate. We are already pulling as many tricks as possible to keep the framerate decent as is, so finer resolution of the terrain is simply not possible. When you are in the game, and moving around, we think you won't find it very angular at all. In fact, it is more "rounded" than many other 3D games out there (like Tomb Raider for example). But when you are looking at a static screenshot everything is noticable Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomm Posted June 17, 1999 Share Posted June 17, 1999 <font size=7 color=#FFFFFF> Excellent work, BTS !</font> I appreciate very much the clear distinction between open ground and wood ! It also emphasizes the 3D nature of the terrain ! Very well done ! Vehicles are outstanding ! I still do not really like the bearded faces of the soldier, which makes them look like mice in my opinion, but do not be bothered, you have done a great job ! Just one question: Have you considered to put a black rectangle under the vehicles to simulate shadow ? I can understand that houses throwing shadows on the surrounding are a problem, but for vehicles just one additional polygon should work fine at miminal computational cost ! Also, you might consider to fill the gap between the track of the half-tracks and the structure with black pixels, because at this point it is too obvious that the model is hollow. I hope that you enjoy making screenshots as much as I like looking at them, because there will never be enough of them ! Regards, Thomm [This message has been edited by Thomm (edited 06-17-99).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted June 17, 1999 Share Posted June 17, 1999 Thanks Thomm! Shaddows are actually MUCH easeier for buildings rather than vehicles. For one thing, they don't move The problem is to make the shaddows look decent we would have to have different ones for different vehicles. We would also need quite a few polygons as well. And when you multiply that by something like 20 vehicles it gets expensive. And then people will want them for infantry as well, and then it becomes VERY expensive. We are constantly on the edge with technology here, so nothing we add comes without a price. Right now, with the 1999 technology, the price is too high. The M3 half track actually looks like the one in the game. The suspension system in real life is such that you can see right through from one side to the other, unlike something like a German HT. So filling that area in would not only be wrong, but it would look wrong. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Galanti Posted June 17, 1999 Share Posted June 17, 1999 I figure you guys probably have this taken into account (since you have about everything else...) but I'm gonna ask anyway If you're fighting a winter battle, will woods degrade visibility less then during summer battles due to no foilage on the deciduous trees (the heavy woods terrain)? Also will there be a spring season with no leaves, but green terrain or whatnot (I'm guessing a yes to that one, since you have the other 3 seasons...) [This message has been edited by Ben Galanti (edited 06-17-99).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted June 17, 1999 Share Posted June 17, 1999 All weather and all terrain act diffently when combined as you should expect. This includes LOS, cover, and things like bogging down. Also makes units more tired, and go slower, to do things like run through snow. Yes we have Spring as well, but you either use the Winter terrain set (without snow) or the summer one, depending on the part of Spring being simulated. Same goes for Fall. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomm Posted June 17, 1999 Share Posted June 17, 1999 No, no, <font size=5 color=#FFFFFF>just ONE more black rectangular polygon</font> right beneath the vehicle, as if the sun comes directly from above ! Please consider it, I am sure that it would add enough depth to the vehicles to be well worth the effort ! <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> The M3 half track actually looks like the one in the game. The suspension system in real life is such that you can see right through from one side to the other, unlike something like a German HT. So filling that area in would not only be wrong, but it would look wrong.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> You know, people like me do not know what that thing looked like in reality , but I KNOW that it was not made out of paper, as it appears in one shot ! (of course this problem would be solved with the black shadow I suggested ! You know what: I am going to try out the black shadow with a paint program and tell you if it is worth it ... hold on ! [This message has been edited by Thomm (edited 06-17-99).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted June 18, 1999 Share Posted June 18, 1999 Thomm, the simple fact is (excuse this for being blunt) you don't know what you are talking about. First of all a minor point, it takes 2 polygons to make a rectangle, not one. Shaddows have to conform to the terrain, which means that msot of the time there would have to be far MORE than 2 polygons, even if we did go with just a rectangle under the vehicle. If we don't do this the shaddow will be "cut up" by the different elevations, so it would look horrible. And what happens when a tank crests the top of a steep hill? What happens to the shaddow if it is "fixed" to the bottom of the vheicle? Again, your asking for this feature is OK, but please don't try and tell us what it takes to do this unless you have done it yourself. Your suggestion can not work without lots more polygons and a decent chunk of CPU time to make them dynamically conform. I don't understand what you mean about the HTs looking like they are made out of paper. If you mean that we don't have 3D road wheels and suspension systems, well you are correct. This would probably double the polygon count for the vehicle, and that is not possible to do. Filling in that texture will make it look even worse, since in reality the suspension system was raised and there IS no solid structure behind it. Thomm, please keep in mind that you are nit picking over a static screenshot. Because of this you can look at every pixel without them moving around on you. This not how it is in the game. Instead of parking the camera and writing up a gripe list, you will be playing the game and watching things in motion. Well, at least you SHOULD be playing the game, as that is what this is all about. All in all, the world we have created is better looking than any other one we have yet to see. Our vehicles also look better than others out there. Sure, it isn't perfect, but the truth is that it never will be. Even if we put in the simplistic shaddow solution (which is not so spimple in code terms), the next thing we are likely to hear are demands for gun shaddows moving with the turret because it is so "simple" to do and is "just one rectangle". Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Beman Posted June 18, 1999 Share Posted June 18, 1999 Good screenshots. I especially liked the building damage shown. Only problem is, the picture labeled "Ardennes, and the Germans are on the move" didn't work for me. Hedgerow fighting looks unpleasant. Keep up the good work so I can play soon! DjB ------------------ A fool takes no pleasure in understanding, but only in expressing personal opinion. remove the caps letters in my address to email me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted June 18, 1999 Share Posted June 18, 1999 Hmmm... try that one again. Sometimes browsers can be a real pain, but the image is good for sure (just double checked). Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomm Posted June 18, 1999 Share Posted June 18, 1999 Yeah, you are right. The clipping problem is really nasty. I thought about it myself (WOW ) when I was painting black shadow rectangles on the pic with the many halftracks. They looked pretty, although the contrast to the landscape was pretty high ! About the "paper" problem: actually it occurs only on one of the halftracks, so forget about it (I bet you already have, anyway *hehe*). Personally I think that the filled suspension of your tanks looks better than the paper wheels of Panzer Elite (what blasphemy !). I really seem to be too sensitive in this respect ! Keep going, Thomm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest John Maragoudakis Posted June 18, 1999 Share Posted June 18, 1999 Screenshots are looking sharp. I think the tanks are solid looking. Snow is nice. Thanks for the overhead shot. This game is really maturing fast. Will you have frozen lakes? If a shell hits the ice, will any tank on the ice fall through? Since CM tracks shells, any shell that lands on ice will change the terrain to a hole. The hole will have the blue water color while the ice around it might have an ice grey. PS do the wheels and tracks spin? If yes, is the spin proportional to the vehicles speed. Not terribly important, but people are used to seeing cars in everyday life. If the wheels and tracks didn't spin, it might look like the tank was sliding. I understand if VRAM limitations won't allow this. Is that the case here?. Thanks John [This message has been edited by John Maragoudakis (edited 06-17-99).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herr Oberst Posted June 18, 1999 Share Posted June 18, 1999 Okay, BTS, your latest set of screen shots closed the deal. I just pre-ordered CM, and will while away the hours until release with Descent III. In the mean time, keep up the good work, don't let the nags get to you (yes everyone, there are far, far more polygons in use than you realize), and realize that each pre-order sale you guys get is: 1) a vote of confidence in your abilities, 2) a vote of approval for your concept, 3) a vote for accurate, realistic models, and 4) one more rabid gamer waiting with baited breath. Tally Ho! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Posted June 18, 1999 Share Posted June 18, 1999 Very nice screen shots BTS. I really like the look of the winter combat. Nice pine trees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted June 18, 1999 Share Posted June 18, 1999 Thanks all! Yes, the game looks fantastic. However, the GAME itself is 10x as good Thomm, now I think you can see the Hell creative game designers live in In our minds we have the same picture perfect world as do you, but we have already tried (more often than not) to implement it. Thankfully, the technology of today is enough to get us 90% of the world we want to see. This is pretty good seeing as 2 years ago it would have been about 5%! Seriously, technology has a long way to go, but it has come SO far already. John, the secenario designer can make the whole map water if desired. Not a fun scenario for sure, but possible! As far as ice goes we don't simulate thinner ice. So either it is thick enough to take a vehicle or it isn't. My tank driver's maual says that a 46ton vehicle requires at least 2ft of ice to drive over. With this thickness an artillery hit, even with no snow on the ice, would only make a small hole if any, which is not enough to cause any noticable problems. Because of VRAM we aren't having special graphics for craters on ice. Shell hits on ice are likely to be rare in any case since fighting on ice isn't going to be common. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Beman Posted June 18, 1999 Share Posted June 18, 1999 What was that old Russian movie, "Aleksander Nevsky?" In the end, the heroic Russian peasant boy lures the evil German raiders onto a frozen lake and then watches the Hun sink through cracks and drown? DjB ------------------ A fool takes no pleasure in understanding, but only in expressing personal opinion. remove the caps letters in my address to email me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CRourke Posted June 18, 1999 Share Posted June 18, 1999 Seems those nasty VRAM discussion have been rearing their ugly head in the recent posts.. Since every seems to be crying for more whiz bang special effects, I thought I'd be original and say that I'm glad you guys are holding the line on the graphics and the required computing power. It must be hard to have the discipline to keep from adding "just one more thing" until you have a bloated behemoth of a game. Don't give in to the temptations. Well except maybe for translucent smoke. And vehicle shadows. Yes, but hold the line there.. absolutely. Oh, did I mention battlefield debris? From a technical standpoint, I was wondering if the "snowy terrain" loads a differant set of textures and data into memory than the standard stuff to save space? Thanks for your time, BTS, Chris R Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Davie Posted June 18, 1999 Share Posted June 18, 1999 For what it's worth, the graphics are already more than adequate for the next ten years. Please concentrate solely on the 'strategic' AI from now on, if the detail level of this game is as thorough as I believe it to be. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted June 18, 1999 Share Posted June 18, 1999 Thanks guys Doug, the graphics are loaded based on what the particular scenario requires. This means a winter scenario only loads a winter scenario. If we didn't do this even a 32MB card wouldn't be enough Tom, not to worry, that Strategic AI is next on the list. Charles just finished coding up the Design Your Own scenario stuff. It's been sitting here for hours, but I haven't had time to test it. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Davie Posted June 18, 1999 Share Posted June 18, 1999 Although this may be painful to some, please take as long as is necessary for the 'strategic' AI to become half decent. The game already looks good. It's got detail. The subject matter is compelling. The realism is right up there. But without a good AI, well....no comment. Btw, thanks for the overhead screenshot; that is *EXACTLY* what I have wanted since the inception of this project. I'll be honest (and in a minority here); nothing else 'did' it for me....I would rather have played with X's and O's than in a 3d environment. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pak40 Posted June 18, 1999 Share Posted June 18, 1999 I like these screenshots better than the other ones, graphics look a little better. I still have one concern: The landscapes look sterile. By that, I mean that there only seem to be trees, hedge rows, and buildings. The landscapes are missing elements that give it character and atmosphere: individual shrubs, signs, debris, & lamp posts. Some architecture seems uneuropean, Hedgerows are square and without trees, cows and other farm animals are missing. I know you have limits and can't throw in lots of items that bring the polygon count up to infinity, but some character in the landscape would help a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted June 18, 1999 Share Posted June 18, 1999 We have thought a lot about the character aspect. However, EVERYTHING we put in takes VRAM and polygons, each of which detract from the game in other ways (FPS and graphics quality). So it is really tough to justify additional "fluff" things. But I think we are going to at least get a church in there. NO, you can't put snipers in the steeple (wanted it, but it would require a rewrite of the building code, so no go), but we think it will give the little villages and towns a big boost in the character department. We will see about putting in a few more inanimate objects if we can. Things like cows are out, since they would look stupid if they didn't move (yes we could make them move, but not worth our time). The thing is, and I have said this 1000 times, screenshots really do not do the game justice. Even the QT movies don't scratch the surface. You really have to see CM in its full glory to know what I am talking about, so we understand why nobody seems to get it. When the demo comes out, you will The houses, BTW, are mostly placeholders, so don't pay them much attention Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marko Posted June 18, 1999 Share Posted June 18, 1999 Steve, The only thing people can objectively judge of your game at the moment is the "look". Therefore, please continue to have the patience of Job when dealing with "polygon-count" questions. I thought that Mr Davie was spot on when he urged you to concentrate on strategic AI. I am sick unto death of lame AI. Every bloody game I've played has lame AI! Whether it was Steel Panthers or World@War or Close Combat or the Unreal bots. Argh! I'll give you my first born if you do a good job with the strategic AI. See how frustrated and desperate I am? Anyone else feel this way? Cheers, Marko Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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