weapon lethality question

[poesel]

I guess this is one of the questions you can only ask in this forum...

 

What would be the MINIMUM distance where a bullet would enter a human body but have NOT enough remaining energy to exit and wound another body standing directly behind the first?

Or the other way round: the MAXIMUM distance where you could wound two persons standing directly behind each other?

 

For a

- G43

- PPSh

 

I have a test in mind but need that piece of info for a correct setup. Thanks!

[Vanir Ausf B]

Depends.

 

We need to know the mass of the bullet and whether it is full metal jacket or jacketed hollow point, elevation of shooter and target, temperature, barometric pressure, body-mass index of target, and the thickness and weave of the soldiers' uniforms.

 

Or you can just use this formula:

 

Penetration{mm} = (0.5223*Velocity{m/s}-11.663)*Diameter{mm}*Density{g/cm3}/7.85{g/cm3}

 

http://slingshotforum.com/blog/11/entry-416-terminal-ballistics-a-model-to-predict-penetration-depth/

[poesel]

The PPSh shoots the 7,62 x 25mm Tokarev M1930 bullet. Diameter is 7,85 mm, weight 5,5g.

The G43 shoots 7,92 x 57mm (or 8x57 IS) bullets. Diameter 8,22, weight 12,8g (I'm not sure about the weight).

 

Atmospheric conditions sea level, 20°C but I doubt CM simulates that!

Angel of impact mostly perpendicular (depending on the distance of course).

BMI of target - well, I can only guess the 'thickness' of the average WWII sodier but I guess healthier than we are now.

The soldiers uniform would IMHO not provide any protection.

 

The link you provided points to slingshot tests with much lower speed and round bullets. This is from the article:

"I derived the blue bars based on data presented in a study by another US Army scientist (Minisi) which were based on much smaller projectiles fired at much higher velocities."

If the US army has such different results I would assume that the slingshot formula would not apply here.

[Sublime]

Out of curiousity why would they be healthier than now? Id think the opposite would be more likely and furthermore nationality would have a role.to play. Though ive read many more accounts from WW1 than 2 its not hard to find references of people impressed by the healthy size of US troops. Id say people now eat healthier food, have had healthier lives with less possible exposures to chemicals (lead paint chips anyone?) And especially in the US dont smoke or smoke less. This is reflected in the steady increase in height and weight averages of troops. A few military accounts that referred to it surprised me in that soldiers would say most of them (US) weighed 150-160 which would be considered skinny for US infantry now.

[womble]

They'd be healthier than us, the aging demographic who sit at their keyboards... They wouldn't be healthier or fitter than a serving C21st grunt, though.

 

Whether a round goes right through someone depends heavily on how much bone and other tough stuff it hits. I sense an agenda regarding multiple kills by the same "streak of light" in CMx2.

[Bulletpoint]

I sense an agenda regarding multiple kills by the same "streak of light" in CMx2.

 

Isn't this already in the game?

[poesel]

Whether a round goes right through someone depends heavily on how much bone and other tough stuff it hits. I sense an agenda regarding multiple kills by the same "streak of light" in CMx2.

 

The 'healthy' thing was just a small joke. People nowadays are usually fatter than during WWII.

 

Yes, 'streak of light' is what I wanted to test. But without some hard data I can't run a meaningful test.

 

I need the minimum distance where there is no chance that one bullet could wound two men. I chose the PPSh and the G43 but any combination of automatic weapon and single shot sniper gun would do.

[Sublime]

Yeah i.ve seen it. Not impossible with.the rifle rounds especially like .30 but i could see one wondering. Same with tank rounds penetrating two other tanks

[womble]

With WW2 rifle-calibre rounds, if you can reliably put the bullet on target, it's very likely to pass through an unprotected human body. Bone and such may deflect it, but any 7-8mm full charge bullet is going through most of the time. 9mm and .45cal is less likely to.

 

But we aren't sure what any given "Streak" represents, so you'll never be able to set up a meaningful test.

 

Edit: terminal ballistics for small arms isn't modelled with nearly the fidelity that it is for anti-armour weapons. The components that make up people are smaller and more indeterminate than the game really handles, I think, so any hit is going to be abstracted, and you really can't expect the model to be calculating precisely whether a round has enough residual energy to kill a second target when there are so many factors which have to be fudged in the first place (did it hit bone? Did it hit the blade of the entrenching tool upon exiting the first casualty? Did it get deflected by hitting something soft at an angle, just for starters).

Edited April 12, 2015 by womble

[poesel]

With WW2 rifle-calibre rounds, if you can reliably put the bullet on target, it's very likely to pass through an unprotected human body. Bone and such may deflect it, but any 7-8mm full charge bullet is going through most of the time. 9mm and .45cal is less likely to.

 

At which range - that is the question.

[womble]

At which range - that is the question.

Firstly, it varies. That's why I said "...if you can reliably put the bullet on target..." meaning the trajectory isn't too loopy, so the bullet's still travelling at close to MV i.e. most ranges at which small arms engage in CM games. Secondly the variables for it not overpenetrating are so broad as to make the answer wildly uncertain when you're talking about pistol calibre rounds (which are more easily deflected). Nobody was using hollow point or frangible ammo to avoid overpenetration in WW2, like civilian police force do nowadays. Thirdly, what's the point of asking when the model is abstracted to the degree it already is?

[poesel]

Thanks for the ideas but it looks like there is no easy answer. I'll take the other route and test inside CM because that is all that matters anyway.

[Sublime]

Yeah probably your best bet. Im interested in your results. Hey what's your avatar from anyways? It looks like a U-Boat officer from an old DOS game =)

[poesel]

Dos game, yes. But U-boat, no.

 

Continue guessing or click on spoiler

 

'Crazy Ivan' from 'The Ancient Art Of War'.

First RTS ever AFAIK and in glorious CGA colors!