20mmAP Vs T34 armor or "Ya, wir können!"

[batteran]

Hello!

I recently try some "quick battles", and, I renconter an funny situation:

- urban little card, my side is german, 6x7.92mm armoreds cars, 6x20mm armoreds cars.

- The soviets have about 20x7.64mm armored cars and... 2 T34: a T34/76 and a T34/85. (surprise, surprise!)

I managed to destroy about 15 soviets armored cars (not a big deal apart manoeuvring from the T34, these soviets cars don't shot at all at my cars unless some rare bursts), and lost 2 cars by the T-34 (1x20mm and 1x7.92mm). I ran out of 20mmAP ammo from my cars (they dont have many in beginning, something like 60xAP cartridges and 90xHE), and end the game (cease-fire).

After looking at the map, I found that the 2 T34 to have destroyed optics and radios, and bad whells.

Is that all I can expect from 20mmAP? Is there a possibility to take out of action a T34 with 20mmAP, or these tanks are invulnerable to that sort of ammo?

And is the german armoreds cars totally invulnerable to 7.64mm ammo too?

I'm curious. (and bad in english, sorry )

[Vanir Ausf B]

Is that all I can expect from 20mmAP?

Yes.

Is there a possibility to take out of action a T34 with 20mmAP

No.

And is the german armoreds cars totally invulnerable to 7.64mm ammo too?

From the front, yes, but I'm not sure about the rear.

[batteran]

Thanks I can stop worrying about the cowardice of my germans ^^

[Oddball_E8]

The 20mm gun has serious trouble penetrating anything built after 1939 basically (at least from the russian side).

The 20mm should never be considered a weapon to use against tanks except in extremely dire circumstances, and then it should only be expected to damage the components of such tanks, not actually kill them.

It was outdated as an anti-tank weapon even before the war started.

This tank was not knocked out by all of this:

[freeman2344]

Sadly 20mm cannot even penetrate wooden bunkers, not sure if that's intended.

[womble]

Sadly 20mm cannot even penetrate wooden bunkers, not sure if that's intended.

??? Small arms can penetrate wooden bunkers, and KO concrete ones... The hit text says small arms can "penetrate" concrete bunkers, too, but someone offered a good explanation of why that's probably a misleading artefact of the stepped embrasure.

[freeman2344]

??? Small arms can penetrate wooden bunkers, and KO concrete ones... The hit text says small arms can "penetrate" concrete bunkers, too, but someone offered a good explanation of why that's probably a misleading artefact of the stepped embrasure.

I remember it being this way from CMBN, but I don't think this is the case in CM:RT. Maybe these were coincidences on my end, but I've seen it happen a number of times now. In fact, in my last game, not even flamethrowers were able to knock out a WOODEN bunker.

EDIT: Just did an isolated editor test...and it turns out something else was keeping that bunker from being penetrated, most likely a terrain issue. Flamethrowers are definitely not as effective as one would think, though.

[womble]

I remember it being this way from CMBN, but I don't think this is the case in CM:RT. Maybe these were coincidences on my end, but I've seen it happen a number of times now. In fact, in my last game, not even flamethrowers were able to knock out a WOODEN bunker.

EDIT: Just did an isolated editor test...and it turns out something else was keeping that bunker from being penetrated, most likely a terrain issue. Flamethrowers are definitely not as effective as one would think, though.

Well, if the mechanisms have been adjusted in RT, that can only be a good thing cos they'll be in the 3.0 upgrade for BN. If they're bugs that can be backfixed into 2.13 patch for BN, that would be even better.

[Pandur]

Small arms can penetrate wooden bunkers, and KO concrete ones... The hit text says small arms can "penetrate" concrete bunkers, too, but someone offered a good explanation of why that's probably a misleading artefact of the stepped embrasure.

i think what the hit text "means" is firing slit penetration, like in CMx1, but it only says penetration?

had a SU-76 fire on a bunker recently, HE splash outside on wood surface, no hit text, 1 firing slit penetration, hit text reads "penetration".

so i guess you see the same "penetration" on infantry, they dont penetrate the bunker with smal arms but hit the firing slit.

at least that how i thought it is so far.

[Oddball_E8]

i think what the hit text "means" is firing slit penetration, like in CMx1, but it only says penetration?

had a SU-76 fire on a bunker recently, HE splash outside on wood surface, no hit text, 1 firing slit penetration, hit text reads "penetration".

so i guess you see the same "penetration" on infantry, they dont penetrate the bunker with smal arms but hit the firing slit.

at least that how i thought it is so far.

Yeah, penetrations on bunkers usually mean a firing slit penetration.

Higher-caliber weapons can of course penetrate wooden bunkers, but I haven't seen any penetrate concrete ones (and they really shouldn't) from the sides.

Rear penetrations can occur too if the weapon hits the door and is able to penetrate it.

Also, keep in mind that bunkers are, to an extent, abstracted in the game. In real life, bunkers often had layers of earth covering them as well (especially wooden ones) so it would be very hard for a shell to penetrate it through all that dirt.

And they were often more than one layer of wood if they were made of that.

Add to that the fact that they were often sunken bunkers partially underground with only the part from the firing slit and upwards showing, and you'll see why it's hard to knock one out even with a flamethrower or a 152mm round.

[Dowarisch]

Off topic: but is that some tree mod in Oddballs's picture ??

[Pandur]

its one of the semi transparent tree mods, so you can see through close foliage

Add to that the fact that they were often sunken bunkers partially underground with only the part from the firing slit and upwards showing, and you'll see why it's hard to knock one out even with a flamethrower or a 152mm round.

yea had one of those in the russian campain, unloaded 2 full flamethrowers from the side on wooden bunker from like 20 meters, bunker didnt bother. in first moment i thought how could that be, but then i thought about how the bunker is probably not constructed as the bunker is dsiplayed in the game, also it was raining, everything soaking wet.

[Kauz]

Hello!

.....

After looking at the map, I found that the 2 T34 to have destroyed optics and radios, and bad whells.

Is that all I can expect from 20mmAP? Is there a possibility to take out of action a T34 with 20mmAP, or these tanks are invulnerable to that sort of ammo?

With the regular 20 mm AP ammo...you won´t penetrate the T-34.

Only thing i could imagine in real-life is that the tracks get destroyed and immobilize the tank.

Or one 20mm AP round somehow manages it to penetrate or block the rim-area between turret and upper chassis .

This way the turret would not be able to rotate anymore.

very unlikely is hitting the gun barrel and perforating it.

Hitting the optics and radios seem to me more unlikly than the first two options i mentioned.

But damaging radio/optics seem to be the most common thing in CM:RT....aiming on, hitting and destroying the tracks on the other side i see not often.

....

And is the german armoreds cars totally invulnerable to 7.64mm ammo too?

....

side is about 8mm angled....

a 7,64mm standard round may penetrate 5-7 mm at 100 meters point blank

.

So the invincibilty of a SPW against 7,64mm is plausible.

[John Kettler]

batteran,

Welcome aboard!

Footage exists showing a 2cm autocannon going head to head with an early war T-34/76. Talking spitting distance, burst after burst, all to no effect. Crew had to abandon gun, which the tank promptly crunched!

Regards,

John Kettler

[freeman2344]

Hitting the optics and radios seem to me more unlikly than the first two options i mentioned.

But damaging radio/optics seem to be the most common thing in CM:RT....aiming on, hitting and destroying the tracks on the other side i see not often.

Track hits are not as common as one would think as units always aim for the center of mass and never specifically at the tracks. Radio/optics damage is, as far as I know, abstracted to a certain extent as impacts on the vehicle always have some chance of knocking these components out, for example due to the shock of the impact knocking optics out of alignment and so forth.

[Oddball_E8]

Off topic: but is that some tree mod in Oddballs's picture ??

Yes, it was the old CMBN tree mod that made the trees partially see-through.

There are better new mods for that tho at cmmods

[Oddball_E8]

With the regular 20 mm AP ammo...you won´t penetrate the T-34.

Only thing i could imagine in real-life is that the tracks get destroyed and immobilize the tank.

Or one 20mm AP round somehow manages it to penetrate or block the rim-area between turret and upper chassis .

This way the turret would not be able to rotate anymore.

very unlikely is hitting the gun barrel and perforating it.

Hitting the optics and radios seem to me more unlikly than the first two options i mentioned.

But damaging radio/optics seem to be the most common thing in CM:RT....aiming on, hitting and destroying the tracks on the other side i see not often.

side is about 8mm angled....

a 7,64mm standard round may penetrate 5-7 mm at 100 meters point blank

.

So the invincibilty of a SPW against 7,64mm is plausible.

Yup, tanks get immobilized fairly often by 20mm and especially 37mm AA weaponry.

But I did have one tank get catastrophically blown up in that same scenario.

It was immobilized and fired upon by several wirbelwind tho, but one lucky shot penetrated an "opening" (must have been the drivers vision slit) and resulted in a catastrophic explosion.

[Oddball_E8]

batteran,

Welcome aboard!

Footage exists showing a 2cm autocannon going head to head with an early war T-34/76. Talking spitting distance, burst after burst, all to no effect. Crew had to abandon gun, which the tank promptly crunched!

Regards,

John Kettler

Could we get a link to that?

[Kauz]

Yup, tanks get immobilized fairly often by 20mm and especially 37mm AA weaponry.

....

I was saying the opposite...

i can not speak for the 37mm AA....but the 20mm did NOT have effect on the tracks, obviously because the AI always aim on the center of the enemy unit.

Always hoped the 20mm gunner would know that he only should do 2 things to fight the enemy tank...

1. kill enemy infantry on the tank

2. fire on the tracks area to get him immobilized

but the AI is not intelligent enough for that...

I remember another game of Battlefront...it is called Theater of war....and if i remember right you could choose where your tank has to aim on on enemy tank....such a pity that they did not implement that in Combat mission also

[batteran]

batteran,

Welcome aboard!

Footage exists showing a 2cm autocannon going head to head with an early war T-34/76. Talking spitting distance, burst after burst, all to no effect. Crew had to abandon gun, which the tank promptly crunched!

Regards,

John Kettler

Thank You ^^

With the regular 20 mm AP ammo...you won´t penetrate the T-34.

[...]

OK for 20mmAP ammo and T34 ^^

side [of german armored car] is about 8mm angled....

a 7,64mm standard round may penetrate 5-7 mm at 100 meters point blank

.

So the invincibilty of a SPW against 7,64mm is plausible.

You got the key: standard round. I don't know, but maybe the "DP" machinegun mounted on soviets armored cars have mixed ammo? AP, incendiary, ect?

small stories:

I made an experiment a the range, one day...

I have a K98k, and about 5-6 reloaded 8x57ammo with old piercing bullet. (old WW2 ammo "from the wood" a bit rusted you can find in France ^^ We usually take away the case, primer and powder, re-use only the bullet. But I know some folks that re-use the powder too "they a 2 sort of german powder" they say. I prefer not trying ^^)

at 100m, on a 30mm thick plate at 90° ( "creusabro" steel: best quality) they make a crater about 5mm width and you can see the "penetrator", a small hard stell stick, stuck in the middle oh this crater.

I paint again the plate and continue firing "standard" ammo. And surprise! An lucky bullet hit the same crater a previous penetrator was stuch and... push it right trough! I have a small hole, ~4mm from side to side of my 30mm plate.

Oh! and another day:

- cops: "Hello! We have receiving our new armor plate for our cars. Can you give it a try on this one?"

- We: "Yes! (chic-chic!)" place the plate at the 100m range.

* .22lr: some paint is gone. Maybe.

* .308? (I don't remember): a small dent

* .300winchester magnum: Oh! that's a big dent!

- We: Ok, next step, AP ammo!

- Cops: Hehe, no thanks, that's all we have to know, standard ammo won't penetrate, it's OK.

- We: Oooooooh (disapointed)

[Kauz]

...

You got the key: standard round. I don't know, but maybe the "DP" machinegun mounted on soviets armored cars have mixed ammo? AP, incendiary, ect? ...

I am not familiar with russian 7,6mm ammo...

for the germans you find 3 signifcant rounds useful for armor penetration:

7,92mm IS "sS" (schweres Spitzgeschoss) (@100m ~6mm? penetration; main production/standard ammo of german 7,92 IS production)

7,92mm IS "SmK" (Spitz mit Kern) (@100 ~10mm? penetration; ~10 % of ammo production)

7,92mm IS "SmK(H) (Spitz mit Kern gehärtet) (@100 ~14mm? penetration; ~1% of ammo production

SmK is made of hardened steel

SmK (H) has a more harder tungsten core

The penetration ability and the numbre of production may divergate ....it is only as a rule of the thumb.

If russian did the same way ...you may get an idea why a 7,62mm is not able a fight proper a vehicle which has minimum 8mm armor (not counting the impact angle, the distance and the fact that the front is better armored)

[Oddball_E8]

I was saying the opposite...

i can not speak for the 37mm AA....but the 20mm did NOT have effect on the tracks, obviously because the AI always aim on the center of the enemy unit.

Always hoped the 20mm gunner would know that he only should do 2 things to fight the enemy tank...

1. kill enemy infantry on the tank

2. fire on the tracks area to get him immobilized

but the AI is not intelligent enough for that...

I remember another game of Battlefront...it is called Theater of war....and if i remember right you could choose where your tank has to aim on on enemy tank....such a pity that they did not implement that in Combat mission also

Well I have had tanks become immobilized by 20mm fire so I don't know what to tell you except, you seem to be wrong.

[Kauz]

Well I have had tanks become immobilized by 20mm fire so I don't know what to tell you except, you seem to be wrong.

ok...i hope so ^^

[John Kettler]

Oddball_E8,

If I could find the clip, I'd happily tell you where to find it. Am pretty sure I first saw it on The World at War, but have seen it several times since, probably on the Military Channel. Am fairly certain it was winter footage, it was definitely in a village and what the film showed was the 2cm Flak engaging the T-34 from maybe 50 meters down to abandoning the gun right before crunch time came. I don't recall the T-34 was firing as it closed range, but then, why bother when it's immune to fire and can simply grind over the gun at will?

Regards,

John Kettler