Vulnerability of German tanks

[Mr.X]

Some guys here are discussing, if especially the German Tanks in RT would be to weak in comparison to their Soviet opponents.

Some years ago, I had an interesting conversation with an old man, who had been a commander of a Tiger I in 1943 - 1944.

I asked him, what he feared mostly for, when they were in combat and his answer was (with regard to CMRT) amazing:

1. the Soviet 90mm AA Gun (I think it was a lend and lease type of the Swedish Bofors?), which was responsible for some total losses with the whole crew KIA.

2. Soviet AT rifles

In RT, you can only hope to damage a Tiger with such a weapon by immobilizing it or kill the commander, if he is unbuttoned. In reality, the Soviet Soldiers were ordered to shot at the commander´s cupola (is it the right word for this?). That way, not a few German Tiger-Commanders were blinded or eaven beheaded, when the weak cupola was blast away :eek:

So, we can be relieved - in RT, this is impossible Or am I wrong?

Regards

Frank

[AlexUK]

I have ordered an AT rifle to shoot at a Tiger and he seemed to be getting a lot of hits on the tracks - I wondered at the time if this May have been intentional as there was a possibility of immobilisation?

[Mr.X]

Normally, an AT-rifle should at least be able to destroy the connection of the single parts of the track - and so, to immobilize the tank...

Regards

Frank

[SnakeTheFox]

1) I'm not aware of any 90mm artillery in Soviet service (or any 90mm Bofors). Did you mean perhaps the 85mm AA gun?

2) Looking at the widely available penetration tables of the PTRD/PTRS AT rifles, I can't really see them being too much of a threat to a Tiger, except maybe for a rare top-down attack from a rooftop or some such. Although I imagine his fear was more that he would be shot out of the hatch, rather than the rounds actually penetrating the tanks armor. I do believe infantry of all types will initially aim for any unbuttoned crewmen first, if given a target order on a tank. Someone would have to test if this applies to 14.5mm AT rifle infantry as well.

[Oddball_E8]

1) I'm not aware of any 90mm artillery in Soviet service (or any 90mm Bofors). Did you mean perhaps the 85mm AA gun?

2) Looking at the widely available penetration tables of the PTRD/PTRS AT rifles, I can't really see them being too much of a threat to a Tiger, except maybe for a rare top-down attack from a rooftop or some such. Although I imagine his fear was more that he would be shot out of the hatch, rather than the rounds actually penetrating the tanks armor. I do believe infantry of all types will initially aim for any unbuttoned crewmen first, if given a target order on a tank. Someone would have to test if this applies to 14.5mm AT rifle infantry as well.

1: I'm fairly sure he meant the 85mm... People get old and don't remember the details so well when it comes to calibers and the like. Happens all the time in old WWII vets. memoars.

2: I doubt the Tigers cupola had the same armour thickness as the rest of the tank. IIRC it had mostly 75mm armour, but the visors would have considerably less than that.

It's not inconcievable that a PTRS could penetrate the visor to reach into the tanks cupola.

[Mr.X]

You are right, it couldn´t be a Bofors AA Gun - these were of 40mm calibre. What he meant, was the American M1 90mm gun. This weapon was actually part of the lend and lease material. I took a look at some of my books today and found an example: On August, 12th 1943, the Tiger 913 (SS-Unterscharführer Fein) was completely destroyed by an Soviet 90mm AT Gun of American origin - the whole crew except for one man burned to death inside the wreck, this one, Franz Hofer, died later the day as a result of his heavy injuries (source: Schneider, "The Tigers of SS-Panzer-Division Totenkopf"). There are two pictures of the tank but unfortunately I am not able to upload them.

Regards

Frank

[MikeyD]

I'm reminded of Belton Cooper's book "Death Traps". It seems nobody's more liable to make silly head-scratcher mistakes than the guys who were actually in the thick of it. An 85mm AA gun, a 90mm AA gun, it was all the same to them. They weren't obsessive hobbyist grogs like... us.

[Melchior]

Normally, an AT-rifle should at least be able to destroy the connection of the single parts of the track - and so, to immobilize the tank...

Regards

Frank

The track itself wasn't as good a target as the wheels were. They were much easier to hit and cracking them would immobilize the vehicle for days because they were just such a pain to repair.

[Oddball_E8]

I'm reminded of Belton Cooper's book "Death Traps". It seems nobody's more liable to make silly head-scratcher mistakes than the guys who were actually in the thick of it. An 85mm AA gun, a 90mm AA gun, it was all the same to them. They weren't obsessive hobbyist grogs like... us.

I remember reading a funny comic strip about that here some years ago...