Abandoned tanks question

[ASL Veteran]

Ah, here we go. I decided to type up and save a whole bunch of personal accounts and keep them handy because this stuff always seems to come up and I was getting tired of retyping everything all the time. In the 'Unhorsed Commander' category I have these personal accounts

For this first one, the commander wants to switch to a different tank, but the battle situation makes it impossible for him to do so

Mine was the panzer at the point. Since the stops to fire were becoming more and more risky, I raced towards the edge of the woods for cover. A shell exploding in the treetops turned out to be our undoing. The tree top fell down on us from a great height and hit the center of the vehicle in such an unfortunate way that the leafy branches cut off our visibility completely, the turret got stuck, and we were thus out of action. We quickly turned back and forth but were unable to strip the monster from us. I bailed out and wanted to get into another panzer. In the meantime, however, two of my vehicles had driven forward past me. They both were hit when they next stopped to fire. One lost a track, the other kept exchanging fire for a while yet. The fourth panzer had slid sideways into a shell crater and was also stuck. The panzers were out of action even before they were really involved in any.

Once again, with this one the tank commander bails out, wants to mount a different vehicle but the battle situation makes it impossible.

At approximately 10:30 hours, the fourth wave prepares for the attack. This time, it appears, there are more tanks. The same drama as before is repeated, but during the frontal tank duels an anti tank shell suddenly rips open, coming from the right, the floor of the chief’s panzer. The lone tank, mentioned before, had sneaked close and while our turret is still being swung to the three o’clock position a shell hits the front right and like a flash the chief’s panzer is engulfed in flames. Hatch covers fly open, the gunner bails out to the left in flames, the loader dives out to the right. The chief wants to get out through the top turret hatch but is caught by the throat microphone wire. He then tries to make it through the loader’s hatch to the right but bumps heads violently with the radio operator who could not open his own hatch. The barrel, having been turned half right is blocking it. The chief has to move backward. He pushes the radio operator through the hatch, is engulfed in flames for some seconds, in danger of fainting. Still, he manages the jump to freedom but he still has the steel boom of the throat microphone at his neck. He cannot pull it over his steel helmet. So he is hanging at the panzer skirt, almost strangling himself, while machine gun salvos are slapping against the panzer. With a desperate jerk, he rips loose. The wire, almost finger thick, dangles in front of his chest. In the hollow, scene of the attack at night, the crew assembles except for the driver, Sturmmann Schleweis, who remained in the burning panzer. He was probably wounded or killed by the impact. His hatch was free, he would have made it out otherwise. The gunner lies on the ground still in flames. The crew covers him with their own partly burned bodies trying to smother the flames. He was not wearing leather gear, but only fatigues since he was taking the place of the regular gunner only for the night. The Regiment had to thank it’s commander Max Wunsche for the leather clothing. He understood the value of such gear. It was booty from Italian navy supplies and saved the lives of quite a few men. The gunner died of his burns later in hospital.

Initially, the chief as well as the others, do not notice their own burns on their faces and their hands. The tank attack is still rolling ahead it has not been stopped. However, this is soon looked after by the other three panzers. They seem not to have noticed the drama which just ended. The excitement of combat holds everyone in it’s grip. Almost helplessly the chief stands in the middle of the action and observes to his reassurance and joy how courageously the commanders, all NCOs, are doing battle and how well the shells are aimed by the crews. Almost each shot is a hit. They have been spotted behind this excellent cover, but only by their muzzle fire. The embankment covers them, it would have to be a direct hit to the turret.

This attack too is repelled. The hatch of one of the panzers opens. A face looks out, barely recognizable blackened by powder smoke, marked by exertions, and shocked by the view of the chief who resembles more a baked potato than a human. After handing over command to the senior panzer commander, an Unterscharfuhrer, the chief drives the wounded men back to the Regimental command post in the VW Kubel of the artillery commander.

An example of an American tank commander who swaps rides. The problem with this one is the time factor. It is clear that the original battle has moved on from their position because they had time to bail out, run to cover, and treat a wounded crewman. Only after all that occurs does the commander have the ability to flag another vehicle down to take him back into the fight.

As the tankers reached the north edge of town, Perkin’s tank began to draw heavy fire from large caliber guns some 2500 yards to his front. After firing one round at the anti tank guns, Perkins directed his tank behind a small stone wall. A shell hit the muzzle, forcing it into a violent recoil just as Perkins was reaching into the breech to clear out some spilled powder. The breech broke his arm in two places, and the tank was bathed in flames. The crew jumped out as Perkins cut the bedding loose; the men hastily withdrew to a building some 100 yards to the rear where they splinted Perkin’s arm. Perkins directed the men to accompany him back to the tank. He crawled inside to retrieve a secret code, while the others splinted Sgt Tim McMahan’s leg. Hailing a nearby tank, Perkins rode ahead to finish the battle. Corp Kenneth F Grogan, Perkins driver, told a correspondent for the Armored News, that the company commander was finally ordered off the battlefield and forced to have medical treatment.

In this example the commander is not close enough to the rest of the vehicles under his command to remount another vehicle. In fact, by the time he flags down a ride and gets close enough to mount another vehicle the battle is over.

Commanders report to me – we’re attacking – Flak panzers will swing wide to the right, then turn in and attack the village from the north when the frontally attacking panzers have reached the edge of the village. All others, spread out wide and then at the village and into it at full speed. There will be no firing, no stops to fire on the way! Assemble at the church. I will watch the attack from herein the Jagdpanther and if required will provide cover fire. I’ll follow when the edge of the village has been reached. Panzers March!

I stood in the turret of the combat ready Jagpanther and followed through binoculars, the progress which was almost like a drill. Everything went well, then just outside the village an explosion. One panzer stopped. Anti tank gun or mine? Down into the panzer and at the scissor telescope. The gunner had already taken aim at the target, was waiting only for the order to fire. An explosion, a hit to our own Jagpanther’s front armor plate! The scissor telescope was gone, rivet heads popped off, ricocheting, crisscross through the fighting compartment. “Back into cover!” Right away, the second hit to the right drive sprocket. The panzer swung its front to the left, but rolled into a depression in the terrain. Luckily it was not burning. Out! Our own panzers were inside the village, out of sight, and without leadership! Motorcycle messenger over here! Onto the back of the cycle, no seat, only a carrier to sit on, into the village at full speed, following in the panzer track so as not to be blown up by mines. Through the dawn we arrived unscathed in Deg. My panzers had their hot moments behind them already. They had encountered Russian assault guns, 10 cm, about a dozen of them. The Soviets were surprised some of them were knocked out, others were able to escape from the opposite edge of the village to the south and southeast. Two were sitting in the creek bed next to the bridge, the others rolled across it. The highlight was that one of the Flak panzers had knocked out such a behemoth with its 2 cm or 3.7 cm gun from behind in the engine compartment.

In this example, the tank commander tries to take over control of a neighboring vehicle in the middle of battle. While the commander is trying to sort everything out with the commander of the subordinate vehicle, the tank he wants to switch to takes a direct hit and everyone on the new tank is killed.

Don’t count your chickens before they are hatched! Our quick reaction had only partially ruined Ivan’s surprise. He hoped to shell us when we were helpless in the minefield, but even on the edge of it we were not exactly in a good position. The company was subjected to murderous anti tank gun fire. Tiger 100 took a bad hit. An 85mm armor piercing round ricocheted off the lower part of the gun barrel and penetrated the upper deck of the hull, right between the driver and the radio operator positions. I stared at the hole in disbelief. My radio had packed it in. The driver, Werner Grasse, looked at me in horror. I became aware of an unnaturally warm feeling in the area of my lower abdomen. I was terrified. A stomach wound? I mechanically worked my way in through the winter coveralls and uniform. In my underwear I found a big fragment, almost a cubic centimeter in size. I was relieved. Nothing had happened to the crew.

The company started to engage the anti tank positions. For us, however, the turret would not move. It was jammed. Oberleutnant Adamek leaned down from the commander’s cupola into the fighting compartment and called to me: “come with me. We’re going to 131.” I said something to the effect that, “You can’t do that. That is Oberfeldwebel Fendesack’s tank. We have to use another one.” The Oberleutnant, however, was already out of the tank. I caught up with him on the rear deck of Tiger 131. He sent me back to our own vehicle for his maps, which he had forgotten. I ran back. As I was standing behind the rear of Tiger 131 with the maps, the Oberleutnant stood next to the turret beside the tank commander in order to tell him and the radio operator to go to our tank. At that moment, a high explosive round struck the turret of Tiger 131. Oberleutnant Adamek was killed instantly.

While the attack continued, we rolled back toward the rear. We ran into Spiess Haase. He was all ready to climb aboard as tank commander. It was only with difficulty that we got him to understand that we had been penetrated by a shell, that our turret was jammed, and that the damage could only be repaired at the maintenance facility.

In theory the tank commander should always be able to remount a new vehicle in order to maintain command and control. I'm sure that is how it is taught at every officers training academy for tankers. However, the reality and shock of battle tells us that it isn't always a simple thing to accomplish under combat conditions.

[YankeeDog]

There were also a lot of risks involved while jumping onto a tank that is actively engaged with the enemy.

Sure, but CM would model this just fine without any additional features; it would be extremely risky to send a dismounted HQ unit over to another tank that was actually engaging with the enemy; you'd be much wiser to order the "new ride" to pull back to a safe place before exchanging crews.

Another issue is that the commander may not just happen to be within easy walking distance of a tank he wants to take over and as long as his tank is destroyed there is no way for the subordinate vehicles to even know where the commander is let alone that he needs a ride.

Sure, but this is true of CMx2 C2 in general. If a halftrack carrying a weapons team in hits a mine and is destroyed, I can immediately send over another halftrack to pick them up (assuming I have one), even though IRL the weapons crew might be far away from other friendlies and have no easy way of signalling the issue. I don't see any particular "additional unrealism" in allowing a tank platoon HQ to execute a similar action.

In theory the tank commander should always be able to remount a new vehicle in order to maintain command and control. I'm sure that is how it is taught at every officers training academy for tankers. However, the reality and shock of battle tells us that it isn't always a simple thing to accomplish under combat conditions.

Fairly easy to account for within the game engine as it is now as well: Set a rule that an HQ crew must be in good order (let's say "Nervous" morale or better, supression meter not out of the yellow) to requisition a subordinate tank. Therefore, if the HQ crew is panicked, to wait for them to calm down before executing the switch, and HQ crews that had taken as serious beating and had poor morale wouldn't be able to hop rides at all.

Actually, I'd be comfortable with just making it a blanket rule that dismounted vehicle crews in general must be in good order (good morale, minimal suppression) to re-mount vehicles.

Again, I am certainly not screaming for this to be a high priority addition to the game engine, but when and if there is time and resources to add it, I do think it would be a realistic addition (so long as strictly limited to the HQs requisitioning the vehicles of subordinates).

[ASL Veteran]

Again, I am certainly not screaming for this to be a high priority addition to the game engine, but when and if there is time and resources to add it, I do think it would be a realistic addition (so long as strictly limited to the HQs requisitioning the vehicles of subordinates).

It's just as realistic to not have the tank commander mounting another vehicle within the time frame of a scenario as it is to have him mounting another vehicle so there is no 'realism' issue here that supports your position. It's simply something that you want to do within the game that may or may not be a reflection of reality depending upon the exact circumstances of when and where the re crewing takes place.

Responding to your edit - perhaps, but now it isn't so simple an issue anymore is it? Now we have to introduce all sorts of caveats and restrictions rather than just a simple 'hop on' command.

[sburke]

not really sold one way or the other, but the main thought that comes to mind is usually my reason for having a dismounted HQ tank crew is I managed to get their tank blown up. They likely have crew casualties so I am not thinking to take over a fully crewed vehicle. I'd mostly be happy just getting them back on the comm network. The exception might be a bogged tank.

[YankeeDog]

Responding to your edit - perhaps, but now it isn't so simple an issue anymore is it? Now we have to introduce all sorts of caveats and restrictions rather than just a simple 'hop on' command.

No argument there. I've certainly come to learn that adding almost any new game feature is 10x more complicated than what it seems to be at first glance. Hence my comments stating that I don't see this as a particularly high priority feature for addition. It might be nice, but there are plenty of other possible new features that would require as much or less coding & deubug time that I would consider higher on "the list".

[Pelican Pal]

With scenarios increasingly becoming 1-2 hour affairs the question of time and phrases like "heat of battle" really don't fully apply anymore.

Scenarios are now long enough to require reorganization of attacking companies, large ammunition resupply, the possibility of multiple jump off attacks against multiple prepared lines of defense.

It is entirely possible for a scenario to have screening positions, MLR, and a reserve line or two for the attacker to capture. Each of these positions could be hundreds of meters apart. The distance between the first encountered positions and the final reserve lines could be a kilometer or more.

There is definitely time in such scenarios and the opportunity to remount COs to undamaged tanks in non-combat conditions.