Set-up Hedgerow Line-of-Sight woes

[Holman]

I'm sure I'm not the only one to experience this:

You painstakingly set up your defending units, taking great care with placement and visibility, ready for the armored onslaught that's coming your way. You have no armor yourself, and your defense hinges on well-sited AT guns. You're using everything you've ever learned about keyholes, sight lines, and target arcs. All is ready. You send your first turn to your opponent.

When it returns, the AT guns you carefully placed can no longer see through the hedgerow right next to them. What was a perfectly blue sight-line in set-up is now blocked red.

Grrrrr...

Is there any remedy for this once a scenario starts? Do I actually have to move (thus probably exposing) my AT guns, or is there some trick of jiggling target arcs I can try?

More importantly, why does this happen in the first place?

[YankeeDog]

Only suggestion I can make is to make sure to check LOS AFTER issuing any FACE, COVER ARC etc. orders to the gun. During setup, these orders can change the position of the gun within the action spot and this, in turn, can affect LOS/LOF.

I've actually discovered that you can use this effect of the FACE/COVER ARC orders to tweak the positioning of a gun within the action spot somewhat during setup -- sometimes, you can get a slightly better positioning by FACEing the gun in a different direction than you ultimately expect to engage, and then re-orienting it on turn 2. Of course, if you use this trick and the enemy shows up in the gun's assigned sector on Turn 1, you may miss the shot. AT Guns don't rotate very quickly...

[Holman]

Only suggestion I can make is to make sure to check LOS AFTER issuing any FACE, COVER ARC etc. orders to the gun. During setup, these orders can change the position of the gun within the action spot and this, in turn, can affect LOS/LOF.

I've actually discovered that you can use this effect of the FACE/COVER ARC orders to tweak the positioning of a gun within the action spot somewhat during setup -- sometimes, you can get a slightly better positioning by FACEing the gun in a different direction than you ultimately expect to engage, and then re-orienting it on turn 2. Of course, if you use this trick and the enemy shows up in the gun's assigned sector on Turn 1, you may miss the shot. AT Guns don't rotate very quickly...

Yep, I was checking LOS after setting my arcs. (I didn't try the alternate facing trick.)

I sometimes get the impression that units jiggle a little in place when the set-up is processed into the first turn. I don't see it happen between regular turns, but this isn't the first time I've lost line of sight at the end of set-up.

[YankeeDog]

Yep, I was checking LOS after setting my arcs. (I didn't try the alternate facing trick.)

I sometimes get the impression that units jiggle a little in place when the set-up is processed into the first turn. I don't see it happen between regular turns, but this isn't the first time I've lost line of sight at the end of set-up.

Oh; yeah... that's another thing. If you watch closely, you'll see that it takes a few moments for a heavy weapons unit like a gun to "settle down" after you give it a FACE or COVER ARC order. This is true even during the setup phase. The pixeltruppen sort of mill about for a little bit until they find new positions around the gun.

So make sure to wait until the entire crew has stopped moving before you check LOS/LOF.

Following these guidelines, I personally have not seen LOF for a gun change drastically between setup and turn one. It's possible you're seeing something I have not experienced or noticed, though.

[Holman]

I hope I did miss something like that. Fixing user error is easier than fixing a bug.

[sfhand]

I really want to like and use AT guns... however, I have had very unsatisfactory experiences (my values and expectations) with them. I'm not necessarily talking about guns set up during the setup, e.g., in Huzzar as the Amis one gets an AT gun as a reinforcement. I set it up behind a hedgerow with LoS to an enemy assault gun yet it never fired. I have also experienced way too many problems setting up MG's behind bocage. I have a hard time understanding why they don't set up with LoS when their waypoint says there is LoS from that location. I guess I'm saying I'm not sure if the "problem" is with the unit or the bocage modelling.

[YankeeDog]

There are definitely still issues with heavy weapons and setting up along bocage. Things have improved in more recent patches, but it's still possible set up in a way that it's primary weapon can't fire through the bocage, even if you give it a FACE order which *should* tell it to set up properly.

As a general rule, when moving MGs and other heavy weapons up to bocage, to ensure they will be able to fire through the bocage, make sure the final movement leg always approachs the bocage at right angles -- plot an extra waypoint if necessary to ensure this. IME, this prevent issues 99% of the time.

[mjkerner]

Yep, I was checking LOS after setting my arcs. (I didn't try the alternate facing trick.)

I sometimes get the impression that units jiggle a little in place when the set-up is processed into the first turn. I don't see it happen between regular turns, but this isn't the first time I've lost line of sight at the end of set-up.

^^^This. I've seen it a lot on setup. When I do my own scenarios, I don't use a setup zone for "my" side.

[Bulletpoint]

I have many LOS problems, not just during setup. I've lost count of how many times I have had units taking distant fire through both canopy and hedgerows.

Sometimes it works to my advantage, but I'd rather not have help like that.

Once, one of my shermans, that had been sitting in place for around 10 turns, suddenly turned its turret and destroyed a Marder at a range of around 300 metres. I counted five hedgerows and numerous tree lines bewteen the two, and did lots of "unit eye level" checks for LOS, and there was absolutely no way that could have happened.

But maybe it's just a part of the game that I'm not familiar with. Some kind of Command and Control sharing of LOS?

[womble]

Once, one of my shermans, that had been sitting in place for around 10 turns, suddenly turned its turret and destroyed a Marder at a range of around 300 metres. I counted five hedgerows and numerous tree lines bewteen the two, and did lots of "unit eye level" checks for LOS, and there was absolutely no way that could have happened.

That's quite a lot of screening. AFAICT, "sudden and temporary" sight lines like that sometimes get generated by the wind disturbing the foliage at just the right (or wrong) time. That's the only way I can see such LoF/Los getting generated. Unless it's just that each obstruction reduces the spotting chance which usually means that after 2 or 3 layers, the chance is so slim as to be impossible, but the "minimum chance" of a spot is fixed (1% say).

But maybe it's just a part of the game that I'm not familiar with. Some kind of Command and Control sharing of LOS?

We are assured that this is not the case. Information, we are told, is shared, but LoS/LoF is determined on an individual basis for any observer/target pair. Shared information can increase the chance of an individual spotting a target they've been told exists (which makes sense), but the spot itself is not inherited across the C2 net.

[Holman]

Strange but to my advantage: another turn has passed since my OP complaint, and suddenly the same unit (which I have not moved or altered in any way--it retains the same position and arc as during set-up) can see through its hedgerow.

It went like this:

1) During set-up (which is also the orders phase for turn 1), it had a clean blue line through the hedgerow.

2) During the orders phase for turn 3 (when I first checked it again), the line was red. It could not see through the hedgerow at all.

3) During the orders phase for turn 4, the line is blue again as it was at set-up.

I'm happy to have my line again, but I'm interested in how it happens.

Is it possible that units actually move a little of their own accord (not to a new action point, but just shuffling a spotter a few feet to one side) to acquire spotting when it is lost? I know that I've seen MG crews shift a little after their initial placement, usually to the advantage of their spotting. This gun hasn't moved, but maybe its crew did.

[womble]

If the Gunner was cowering (or crawling about) for some reason, they wouldn't be able to see over the berm at the foot of the bocage, temporarily.

[Baneman]

Yes, a lot depends on the gunner position. If you mouse over the Gunner in the UI, his base will flash and you can see what he's doing. They do sometimes crawl and wriggle around on the ground for some reason ( dropped his cigarette ? ).

Also note that the wandering crewman symptom still sometimes kicks in ( esp. if the weapon is set up in a crowded locale - half or less of an AS ) and if it's the gunner, you're SOL as far as firing goes.

[Holman]

In my circumstance, the gunner/crewmen were not cowering. In fact there had been no real action yet in the scenario, just a few spottings.

I did have them under a hide order (with a target arc), but would that kill the spotting line? I was under the impression that it did not, particularly when they were already hiding in set-up (where they showed a blue line).

[YankeeDog]

In my circumstance, the gunner/crewmen were not cowering. In fact there had been no real action yet in the scenario, just a few spottings.

I did have them under a hide order (with a target arc), but would that kill the spotting line? I was under the impression that it did not, particularly when they were already hiding in set-up (where they showed a blue line).

Not sure... there can *definitely* be a difference between the LOS you'll get from a unit on Hide, and the LOS line that you'll get with from the same unit once it's "heads up" -- I've seen this many times. But I've never checked specifically what LOS you get for a unit that is on Hide during setup. It may well be that in the setup phase, you get the "full" LOS, regardless of whether the unit is on hide or not.

[Baneman]

Don't know about a difference between Setup and Gameplay ( although it would make sense ), but during a game, Hide will definitely reduce the chance of a normal Blue line by a lot - 90%-ish.

This is why when moving a unit to a new location, if it is currently Hiding, checking LoS from the new location will not accurately reflect what can/will be seen from the new location.

Always check with an un-Hidden unit ( some rear-area HQ is good for this as you wont forget to cancel their movement order )