worst moments

[freeeman]

Playing as German in Forest of beast or something, my tiger paused at the first bridge.. distracted by a lowly 57 mm anti tank gun.. it turn fired .. took some unknown fire, paniked and the crew bailed out.. stuck on the bridge...

for those who know its really tough and boggy without the bridge to the objective village and the side of the roadways are mined!

that was one quick failure !

lol

[Placebo]

I noticed with the Elefant, it is so tough the crew seem to get spooked and bail out long before the tank is destroyed!

[freeeman]

I keep them well back as they are accident waiting to happen in ths soggy scenario, bog city

I should have said "wurst moment"seeing I'm the Gerry

Ok

Fun

Next run through a tiger took spalling and crew spooked they went out looked around

Ordered them back in and in they jumped

What is spalling?

The next tank took a lucky kill shot to the commander and fought on shaming above tank

Yet they where still unlucky and hit a mine knocking out there treads

[freeeman]

Amazing seeing how effective tiny ami tank destroyer are at 500 plus yards

No wonder Patton derided heavies

But he didn't fight against the red bear

Anyway is armor spalling capable of inflicting crew injury?

[womble]

Armour spalling is fragments of armour, or rivet heads, being shot around the inside of the tank at intermediate to high velocity. Yes, it can cause casualties, either "yellow" or "gone" (W/K-IA). An extreme version of spalling is the HESH round which is designed send a foot-wide or bigger buzz saw ricocheting around the inside of the tank. Don't think that was invented in WW2; at least, I've not seen a vehicle equipped with it in CM. In WW2 spalling mostly occurs when a penetrator, well, doesn't quite, but delivers enough shock to "shake" bits off the back of where it hit, or deforms a plate enough to shear off rivet heads with "explosive" force and send them hurtling round like half-ball bearings being shaken in a box a quarter full of jello.

[freeeman]

thanks..

I love the amazing detail of the damage model

[John Kettler]

womble,

The "Flying Dustbin" fired from the AVRE was HESH, not HEAT as was modeled in CMBO.

HESH Wiki

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-explosive_squash_head

"HESH was developed by Charles Dennistoun Burney in the 1940s for the British war effort, originally as an anti-fortification "wallbuster" munition for use against concrete. He also led British developments in recoilless rifles as a means to deliver the shell. An early application of the HESH principle was the Royal Engineers AVRE's 165mm demolition gun.

HESH was found to be surprisingly effective against metallic armour as well, although the British already had effective weapons using HEAT, such as the PIAT."

I've seen a then-classified tank combat damage study done shortly after the 1967 War. In there was a pic of a T-55 interior following a rear turret hit with 105mm HESH. A piece the size of a pie tin had cut a circular hole right through the radio and doubtless creamed the turret occupants. The pic didn't show the rest of the interior, but I strongly suspect that the area shown had to be first cleaned in order to take that shot. I see no way anything that could core out a substantial, heavy tactical radio could do other than butcher the men in its path. Messily.

Regards,

John Kettler

[womble]

Now you mention it, a vague glimmer of memory about that 165mm round shows in a dark recess of my mind...

I first encountered HESH as a term in WRG modern figures games. It had, according to their tables, some of the best penetration characteristics, and was, IIRC, rated as converting a penetration to a kill nearly 100% of the time. Hardly seemed worth messing about with hyper velocity penetrators...

I wonder whether a HESH hit has less chance of causing ammo cookoffs than other strikes where the high energy penetrator actually enters the fighting compartment.

[freeeman]

Im not surethe high energy particle reaching the inside, my limited understanding is the energy is converted into heat and there is a jet of hot metal and gas exploding inward into the tank interior... I suppose it depends on the charactoristics of the armor though.. a high velocity round could punch throu thinner armor and not have the above afect

[A Canadian Cat]

Im not surethe high energy particle reaching the inside, my limited understanding is the energy is converted into heat and there is a jet of hot metal and gas exploding inward into the tank interior.

That's a HEAT round. HESH is a different beast.

[YankeeDog]

Im not surethe high energy particle reaching the inside, my limited understanding is the energy is converted into heat and there is a jet of hot metal and gas exploding inward into the tank interior... I suppose it depends on the charactoristics of the armor though.. a high velocity round could punch throu thinner armor and not have the above afect

Despite the acronym, a HEAT penetrator does not actually penetrate armor by the mechanism of heat; it does not melt the armor nor is the penetrator actually particularly hot in temperature when it goes through the armor.

Details are complex, but the short version is that the extreme pressure created by the explosion of the shaped-charge HEAT warhead squeezes the liner material (usually copper or aluminum) into a solid, but hyperplastic "jet" of material, which is accelerated into the armor at speeds of around 5000 m/s. This jet of solid metal actually punches through the armor via kinetic force, not heat. Behind this initial penetrator follows a buch of hot gas and other by-products of the explosion, but the penetrator itself is not particularly "hot" at the moment of penetration, and it does not "burn" or melt the armor.

However, the process of punching through steel plate does create a lot of friction, so *after* penetration, some of the penetrator material and cast-off bits of armor from the penetration usually become very hot, sometimes hot enough the become molten, which is why you often hear about hot bits of metal being spattered about the interior of an AFV after a HEAT penetration

The way HESH defeats armor is very different. A HESH warhead actually creates a focused shockwave that causes a large piece of the reverse side of the armor to rupture and fly about the interior of the AFV.

[womble]

Im not surethe high energy particle reaching the inside, my limited understanding is the energy is converted into heat and there is a jet of hot metal and gas exploding inward into the tank interior... I suppose it depends on the charactoristics of the armor though.. a high velocity round could punch throu thinner armor and not have the above afect

Not at WW2 vintage. Mid-C20th solid shot AP rounds punch holes right through armour. The bits of armour they knock loose while doing so can be pretty badass shrapnel/spatter though. AP rounds with a bursting charge are then supposed to detonate within the fighting compartment (wouldn't be much point putting a bursting round on if the projectile en bloc wasn't going to pass through the armour. Really high velocity AP rounds hitting thin armour go right through the whole vehicle and out the other side, leaving only the debris from their initial penetration to do damage outside the actual path of the projectile.

Mr K has posted a thread about armour penetrations recently on this or the BN forum.

[Pewpewchewchew]

Imagine having to assault a building without windows and a covered door filled with FJ troops. Worst battle ever.

[John Kettler]

womble,

HESH works best against monobloc armor, but degrades badly when faced with combined armor using layers of different materials, especially with air gaps between them. For this reason, the Challenger IIs fire HVAPDS vs such targets, but use HESH (which considerably outranges the KE round, as the go to round against buildings, light armor, softskins and such. The only other round carried is WP.

Regards,

John Kettler

[George MC]

What is spalling?

This: