feedback 2.0 map making

[winkelried]

now finishing the second large map on the 2.0 editor. time for some feedback:

1. the overlay really is the killer! it speeds things up significantly. no more need to have a second screen/computer with the map/aerial photo and a grid overlay and to count/calculate locations for elements on the map - this is a SIGNIFICANT IMPROVEMENT. a key to flip through multiple overlays would improve useability here.
   
2. the draw tool needs a bit of a learning curve (it's a bit itchy on junctions and when doing long stretches it can tend to make roads with lots of edges that are not very playable - so one needs to carefully plan the roads anyway), but in the end it's a good improvement too. simplifies and speeds up a lot of things. its useability should be improved by showing the road/wall it will lay already before pressing the button the second time so you could adjust before pressing the button.
   
3. the elevation has also improved - i use mostly the direct method along height lines on the map (thanks to the overlay). this method works nicely now. in the 3D view the gradient chosen by the software sometimes is a bit aggressive - means that you can have steep edges and then relatively flat elevations in between - especially when you place lines rather close to each other.
   
   

Some improvements i feel would help the map maker even more

• water - is still the main issue due to its elevation issues - still using marsh tiles most of the time and then having to adjust for the elevation on my own - not too much of a headache, since the gullies and small rivers i have in my scenarios usually can be crossed by infantry.
  
• fill to border - creating the ground cover is now the most time consuming task (if you have a good aerial picture). usually i draw the outline of a field and then have to fill it with different brush sizes. to automate the fill part would be a big help - but would also require an undo function when you forgot to close the outline completely ;-)
  
• configurable tiles arrangement on the tool bar - for a map i usually need only a subset of tiles so it would be nice to have the ground #1 to #3 tabs to be configurable so i could put my preferred tiles in the #1 bar and then could avoid flipping around the # too much.
  
• oblique buildings - oblique (45 degree angle on the map) buildings should be available in the same size and variability as horizontal buildings.
  
• fire walls - the editor should have an option where it places automatically a firewall without windows/doors when you put two buildings adjacent to each other.
  
  

[Pak40]

I have yet to test the new overlay function. From what I read in the manual, it seems as though you have no control over the scale. How does one know that 8 meters on the photo = 8 meters in the map editor? If you zoom in does the overlay keep it's scale properly?

[Broadsword56]

The scale issue has nothing to do with the game or the game's map editor. That's something you have to decide and work with beforehand, outside the game, when you prepare the image you plan to use as an overlay.

First, you just have to decide what size you want your game map to be.

For example: 1200m x 1200m

Then you have to make sure that however you crop/resize your reference image (whether it's Google Earth, aerial photo, map, etc.) that the boundaries of your image represent a 1200m x 1200m area. (So you have to take a close look at your source material and work with it to zoom/crop/whatever to make it represent the area you want.)

When you're ready to make your map in the CM editor, set the map size to 1200m x 1200m. Your overlay will then be at exactly the right scale for that game map.

[Anyone interested in mapping should get comfortable with an image editing program -- I recommend and use Gimp, and it's free -- but you can also use the free Painshop Pro or Photoshop, etc. If you use Google Earth, you can use the "Ruler" tool to measure distances and draw your map boundaries before you save the screenshot.]

[A Canadian Cat]

Some improvements i feel would help the map maker even more

• water - is still the main issue due to its elevation issues - still using marsh tiles most of the time and then having to adjust for the elevation on my own - not too much of a headache, since the gullies and small rivers i have in my scenarios usually can be crossed by infantry.
  
• fill to border - creating the ground cover is now the most time consuming task (if you have a good aerial picture). usually i draw the outline of a field and then have to fill it with different brush sizes. to automate the fill part would be a big help - but would also require an undo function when you forgot to close the outline completely ;-)
  
• configurable tiles arrangement on the tool bar - for a map i usually need only a subset of tiles so it would be nice to have the ground #1 to #3 tabs to be configurable so i could put my preferred tiles in the #1 bar and then could avoid flipping around the # too much.
  
• oblique buildings - oblique (45 degree angle on the map) buildings should be available in the same size and variability as horizontal buildings.
  
• fire walls - the editor should have an option where it places automatically a firewall without windows/doors when you put two buildings adjacent to each other.
  
  

Good suggestion list. Fill to border would be my least used from your list and I would particularly like to see the wall between touching buildings automatically switch to window and doorless. I would like to seek out the small number of instances where I want doors between adjacent buildings rather than have to take them away from every building that is touching.

[Pak40]

The scale issue has nothing to do with the game or the game's map editor. That's something you have to decide and work with beforehand, outside the game, when you prepare the image you plan to use as an overlay.

First, you just have to decide what size you want your game map to be.

For example: 1200m x 1200m

Then you have to make sure that however you crop/resize your reference image (whether it's Google Earth, aerial photo, map, etc.) that the boundaries of your image represent a 1200m x 1200m area. (So you have to take a close look at your source material and work with it to zoom/crop/whatever to make it represent the area you want.)

When you're ready to make your map in the CM editor, set the map size to 1200m x 1200m. Your overlay will then be at exactly the right scale for that game map.

[Anyone interested in mapping should get comfortable with an image editing program -- I recommend and use Gimp, and it's free -- but you can also use the free Painshop Pro or Photoshop, etc. If you use Google Earth, you can use the "Ruler" tool to measure distances and draw your map boundaries before you save the screenshot.]

Excellent, thanks for the tips.

[Rake]

now finishing the second large map on the 2.0 editor. time for some feedback:

1. the overlay really is the killer! it speeds things up significantly. no more need to have a second screen/computer with the map/aerial photo and a grid overlay and to count/calculate locations for elements on the map - this is a SIGNIFICANT IMPROVEMENT. a key to flip through multiple overlays would improve useability here.
   
2. the draw tool needs a bit of a learning curve (it's a bit itchy on junctions and when doing long stretches it can tend to make roads with lots of edges that are not very playable - so one needs to carefully plan the roads anyway), but in the end it's a good improvement too. simplifies and speeds up a lot of things. its useability should be improved by showing the road/wall it will lay already before pressing the button the second time so you could adjust before pressing the button.
   
3. the elevation has also improved - i use mostly the direct method along height lines on the map (thanks to the overlay). this method works nicely now. in the 3D view the gradient chosen by the software sometimes is a bit aggressive - means that you can have steep edges and then relatively flat elevations in between - especially when you place lines rather close to each other.
   
   

Some improvements i feel would help the map maker even more

• water - is still the main issue due to its elevation issues - still using marsh tiles most of the time and then having to adjust for the elevation on my own - not too much of a headache, since the gullies and small rivers i have in my scenarios usually can be crossed by infantry.
  
• fill to border - creating the ground cover is now the most time consuming task (if you have a good aerial picture). usually i draw the outline of a field and then have to fill it with different brush sizes. to automate the fill part would be a big help - but would also require an undo function when you forgot to close the outline completely ;-)
  
• configurable tiles arrangement on the tool bar - for a map i usually need only a subset of tiles so it would be nice to have the ground #1 to #3 tabs to be configurable so i could put my preferred tiles in the #1 bar and then could avoid flipping around the # too much.
  
• oblique buildings - oblique (45 degree angle on the map) buildings should be available in the same size and variability as horizontal buildings.
  
• fire walls - the editor should have an option where it places automatically a firewall without windows/doors when you put two buildings adjacent to each other.
  
  

Excellent points all, winkelried! I was typing a similar post yesterday in Word, as I knew I'd be adding as I went along. You've covered all the points that I was going to address, and more.

In particular, an Undo function would be sweet, especially after I do something stupid like trying to scroll in the editor as I would in 3D... with left mouse button depressed and flavor objects selected :eek: I think I placed an entire year's production worth of hay rakes, or whatever those things are... I believe there must have been one for every field in NW France!

Also, it would be really nice to have smaller buildings oriented on the NW-SE & NE-SW axes. As it is, the larger buildings can fit in all directions, but it’s impossible to line up a small building along a diagonal hedgerow or roadway. This couldn’t be that difficult to add, could it?

You discussed the water issue in your Maps and Mods post, here (http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=108025&page=6). Marsh and mud seem like an acceptable workaround until such time as water can run downhill.

The overlay feature is sweet! I gave up on trying to make a realistic map in 1.0 using the map/photo/grid/two computers/scale/dividers/protractor/etc. After about two days, I said "eff dis!"

And, lastly, the interpolation used by the editor gets us close, IMO. I'm using a lot of locked points to get what I'm looking for. Still, often less equals more in terms of locking elevations.

[JonS]

Also, it would be really nice to have smaller buildings oriented on the NW-SE & NE-SW axes. As it is, the larger buildings can fit in all directions, but it’s impossible to line up a small building along a diagonal hedgerow or roadway. This couldn’t be that difficult to add, could it?

presumably smashing additional buildings - of any size and/or orientation - into the terrain editor would present few challenges. I suspect their abscence has something to do with the way that small-footprint diagonal buildings would interact with the underlying terrain grid, and especially with trying to get the AI to sensibly use and position troops within a small footprint diagonal building that potentially spans four tiles.

[Rake]

...especially with trying to get the AI to sensibly use and position troops within a small footprint diagonal building that potentially spans four tiles.

Point taken... I had not thought about it along those lines. But, neither did I ask of smashing anything into the editor, either... jerk!

[Uzi]

In relation to scale, one thing I did was use google maps. I staked out an area 1400 x 700 metres and captured it, then I set the map editor to the same measurement and it framed it just right.

The map editor with the transpancy feature is really intuitive, you can do it by eye..

In the picture you can see a work in progress of a close combat map.

[JonS]

jerk!

Well, you were they one who faux-coyly asked "it couldn't be that difficult - could it?" CMx2 has been around for a while now, so presumably it IS that difficult ... dolt!

[JonS]

In relation to scale, one thing I did was use google maps. I staked out an area 1400 x 700 metres and captured it, then I set the map editor to the same measurement and it framed it just right.

Typically, I use Google Earth. I identify a general area I'm interested in, accumulate various maps and aerial recce photos that cover that area, and then add them to Google Earth as discrete layers. Then I add a polygon that covers the specific area I'm interested in. Then I turn the various layers on and off - all using the same framing polygon - to get screen shots of each layer with it's frame. Then each screen shot can be cropped in whatever program you like to get CM-friendly special image overlay.bmps.

The exact dimensions of the polygon can be determined in Google Earth using the ruler tool. There's usually a slight mismatch between the exact size of the polygon and the size of the CM map (which goes up in minimum steps of 16m) but that really isn't worth worrying about, I think. If you do think it's worth worrying it's easy enough to twiddle with the exact placement of the polygon vertices to get an exact size that's CM-friendly.

Note that this is somewhat different to Broadsword56's approach of determining the CM map size you want first, then blocking something that size out in G-E or G-M.

[winkelried]

i first look at the action that will take place. then i select the map area. sometimes i need to make a compromise by scaling the map (e.g. to fit a 5km area on a 4 km map ). then the gathering of the information starts:

1. i try to get a contemprary map (1:25'000 if possible). there are some sites where you can find those - mainly German Maps.
   
2. then i look for contemporary aerial photographs (IGN or local German government sites)
   
3. if no contemporary info is available - i use modern maps/aerials and try to find out what has changed (e.g. highways, new railroad lines, etc)
   

based on the above info i create at least two layers for CM (map and photo). A good approach in sizing the overlays is to have on the map 1 pixel for 1 meter and on the photo 2-3 pixel per 1 meter. The map i normally use only for the elevation and the labels. the rest i get from the photo. I use GIMP to create the layers. be aware that there will always be some distortion amongst the layers or the aerial photos - so it's important to stop when things are close enough - if not you can spend hours on this stuff.

During the creation of the map the following information comes handy

1. battle accounts where i sometimes find information about specific areas/aspects of the battlefield e.g. ground condition - same is true for combat/post combat photographs - if any exist.
   
2. old post cards give you an impression of how the place looked at the time. sites of the local town or regional government can be helpful too.
   
3. google maps with street view may be helpful to get e.g. number of floors, outside aspect of the houses, visibility etc. or to find a cemetary or to identify the specific use of a pattern of houses (e.g. a monastery, school)
   
4. personal visits to the battlefield to get a view with the tactician's eye.
   

then the map making process:

1. first i do the water (marsh-tiles), road and railroad network.
   
2. then comes the elevation and bridges
   
3. then forests and swamps etc
   
4. then houses and trees
   
5. then the remaining ground cover
   
6. at last the flavor objects - if any
   

[Quintus Sertorius]

I would like a spray gun tool for ground cover and foliage. Make it configurable, so the user can set which kinds of foliage get sprayed onto which types of ground tiles, and how frequently.

I would also like the ability to create a simple greyscale height map, and have the editor interpret all the elevations from it.

[Wodin]

I will say something after looking at a map just released in a new scenario it seems using the overlay is creating some very natural looking terrain...