accuracy/efficiency of machine gun fire

[LongLeftFlank]

Thats kind of where I was going, PzK. Armies developed distinct tactical doctrines around both offensive and defensive deployment of MGs starting before WWI. Which in turn dictated their technical evolution, e.g. mounting them on a wheeled carriage (M1910), Lewis "trench" guns which then evolved into LMGs (air cooled, clip or drum fed, bipod mounts), and true multiconfigurable GPMGs (MG34/42).

So I get the sense that CW (and US?) armies, for example, didn't move their heavies around much at all and even "offensive" deployments involved careful presiting. While German (and Russian) doctrine allowed -- even expected -- repositioning during a battle, it seems, much like a light field gun?

[Redwolf]

Somebody with better data should post it but the way I learned it a heavy machine gun isn't much less mobile than medium or light because they add crewmembers to arrive at about the same weight to carry per person.

Of course the whole unit around the HMG is then less mobile since people carry stuff that isn't used for dashing through the veggies. But the load carries should be comparable as long as there is the prescribed amount of ammo.

[Fernando]

An sMG can be undeployed in less than 30 seconds. Perhaps in just 20 second or even less if done by a trained crew. Dismounting the MG from the tripod takes less than 5 seconds (it was fast in the MG34 case but even faster in the MG42 one) then you starts folding the tripod. You must fold three legs starting by the front one (if you have deployed the rear pair of legs,that is; if not then you must fold just the front leg) then you centers the cradle, lower it to minimum elevation and folds it. It maky take 15 second or so. It was done by the AG (Gunner 2) and Gunner 3 (I have called it "Carrier 1" which is his real function) in a very precise sequence (Gunner 2 on the right, Gunner 3 on the left etc.). In the meanwhile the MG gunner covered their comrades with his MG acting as a lMG so an undeployed sMG (HMG) fires like an lMG (LMG)

After dismounting the MG and folding the Lafette you can move as fast as an lMG if you carry the prescribed seven 300-round ammo cans (2,100 rounds). The Lafette is the heavier thing (44 pounds) but it is worn at the back, so it is wearable. Carriers carry 2 ammo cans each helped by the Tragegurt 34 sling.

If you carries much more ammo with you rather than keeping it in the cart, then you get slow and fatigue yourself over time.

The additional equipment carried by the sMG team is just the MG visor, the Lafette, more spare barrels (up to three) and more ammo cans (up to 7), but the additional weight is carried by additional men as well. If ordered, the AA extension tube could be also carried (if you expected to use the sMG for AA duties) and a 300-round ammo can could be exchanged by two 50-round belt drums. There was additional equipment used by the sMG platoon (RK1 for measuring angles, EM34 rangefinder, signaling poles etc.) but they were used at the platoon and group/section level (2 sMG each). Additional men were provided for carrying and using that equipment so they were not a burden for the sMG teams.

[JonS]

I love these threads, where it's taken as read that the German army in 1944 was composed of highly trained, highly experienced, fully healthy men, in fully manned and fully equipped units

Seriously, I appreciate all the 'by the book' info. But you need to realise that a lot of it simply isn't relevant. The "horse-drawn Machinengewehrwagen (If.5), the Infanterie Karren (If.8), the Hf.1 or whatever"? Yeah ... they have nothing whatsoever to do with CM. "An sMG can be undeployed in less than 30 seconds ...", should I assume you've never been part of a weapons crew?

[Fernando]

I love these threads, where it's taken as read that the German army in 1944 was composed of highly trained, highly experienced, fully healthy men, in fully manned and fully equipped units

Procedure for deploying the Lafette:

Gunner 2 (Assistant Gunner, the guy who carries the Lafette at his back) and Gunner 3 (Ammo carrier 1) work together.

1. Gunner 2 releases the front leg catch

2. Rotates the front leg forward and depress the strut latch at the same time

3. When the strut is extended to the desired lenght he will depress the latch for the front leg extension and pull the extension out of the desired lenght

4. Gunners 2 and 3 loosen the wing nuts for the rear legs (Gunner 2 on the right, Gunner 3 on the left). The soldiers hold the mount at the desired height and tighten the wing nuts

5. Gunner 2 grasp the upper mount and presses the cradle latch forward with his left hand. At the same time he pulls the searching fire unit to the rear with his right hand until it looks in place

6. Gunner 2 losen the wing nut on the rear of the searching fire unit and elevate the cradle about half way. If trhe cradle is not level the legs need to be adjusted.

It looks as a lot of work but I will give you a time estimate for each action:

1. 1 second

2. 2 seconds

3. 2 seconds

4. 5-10 seconds (if you want a low profile then you can avoid this step because the Lafette can be deployed without unfolding the rear legs)

5. 2 seconds

6. 2 seconds

7. Adjusting the legs may take some time depending on the ground where the Lafette has been deployed.

The undeploying procedure is just the opposite but you don't have to care about adjusting the cradle, legs etc. You just unfold and leave the latchs to do their task

Do you really think Germans were so dumb to not learn to do it the correct way after a few days training?

Seriously, I appreciate all the 'by the book' info. But you need to realise that a lot of it simply isn't relevant. The "horse-drawn Machinengewehrwagen (If.5), the Infanterie Karren (If.8), the Hf.1 or whatever"? Yeah ... they have nothing whatsoever to do with CM. "An sMG can be undeployed in less than 30 seconds ...", should I assume you've never been part of a weapons crew?

I am an officer in the Spanish Volunteer Reserve (a sort of Spanish National Guard) but I have not been trained as a crew member.

However I have already told you that I have a pair of original Lafetten in working condition in my collecting. I CAN fold and unfold the Lafette nmyself. Believe me, it is EASY but it is easier and faster if two guys do it. The difficult thing is leveling the cradle but it is not a precision operation but just a mader of adjusting the front leg or both rear legs. The later ones have numbers engraved so both Gunner deploys them at "7", "5" or whatever so it is fast and easy to do it if the terrain is level.

There was a Lafette with adjustable rear legs, but it was mostly used by the Gebirsjäger only.

[JonS]

Do you really think Germans were so dumb to not learn to do it the correct way after a few days training?

I think the Germans were neither smarter nor dumber than the soldiers of any other country, and you've clearly missed the point of the part of my post you quoted. I have no doubt whatsoever that you can accurately transcribe step-actions and training standards from The Book, I also have no doubt that The Book has only a passing relationship to reality.

However I have already told you that I have a pair of original Lafetten in working condition in my collecting.

Bully for you. I have a nearly complete 25-pr battery - all the guns, jeeps, trucks, carriers, motorcycles, men, radios, the lot - in 1:100th scale. That and $4.50 will get me a coffee at Starbucks.

[Fernando]

I think the Germans were neither smarter nor dumber than the soldiers of any other country, and you've clearly missed the point of the part of my post you quoted. I have no doubt whatsoever that you can accurately transcribe step-actions and training standards from The Book, I also have no doubt that The Book has only a passing relationship to reality.

Cool down, please.

You was speaking about the German army in 1944. ¿What German army? ¿The German army on June 6th? ¿The German Army after Falaise? ¿The German army on Dec. 16th? ¿The German army in the East before Bagration? ¿After Bagration? ¿The Panzer Lehr? ¿The 711. Inf.Div.? ¿The 21.Pz.Div.? ¿The Panzer Brigades?

German army was deficient in training in the later stages of the war, specially after the masive loses suffered in Summer 1944, but most of the time new units were deficient in unit coordination at higher levels. It is usual to see report about units beign proficient enough at squad, platoon or even company level but not at battalion or regiment level.

Bully for you. I have a nearly complete 25-pr battery - all the guns, jeeps, trucks, carriers, motorcycles, men, radios, the lot - in 1:100th scale. That and $4.50 will get me a coffee at Starbucks.

I just wanted to let you know that I have folded and unfolded a German Lafette myself. A lot of times. Alone at home and also in the open with my reenactment unit. It means I know it first hand. The time in seconds while deploying the Lafette doesn't come from any book but from my own first hand experience. A pair of friends of mine and I have also carried a fully deployed Lafette with a real MG42 on top of it, on the run, so I kown first hand whether it is heavy or not. If not I wouldn't have dared to say it.

[JasonC]

"allowed a man to carry a pair of ammo cans"

Which is the amount I actually accounted for each ammo bearer carrying. Then you implied each could carry 4. And I said, no way, for more than 2 minutes on a short haul.

Look, I've carried 2 ammo cans in one hand (and a rifle case in the other) going to the firing range, on pavement, in time of profound peace - and it is awkward as heck. One in a hand is fine. One in each hand is awkward but possible. Two slung perhaps. Now get in MILES gear and do it for 2 hours on a hot day, double timing everywhere in panic, even pretend panic trying not to lose, instead of trying not to die. OK, not fun, but possible, and happily it gets lighter as the ammo is burned off (until you go to get more that is). But double it?

Crazy, nonsense, no way. Not in combat.

[JonS]

You was speaking about the German army in 1944. ¿What German army? ¿The German army on June 6th? ¿The German Army after Falaise? ¿The German army on Dec. 16th? ¿The German army in the East before Bagration? ¿After Bagration? ¿The Panzer Lehr? ¿The 711. Inf.Div.? ¿The 21.Pz.Div.? ¿The Panzer Brigades?

Yes.

I just wanted to let you know that I have folded and unfolded a German Lafette myself. ... If not I wouldn't have dared to say it.

And that gives you some insight (just like my 25-pr bty gives me some insight ... there are a ton* of vehicles in a full battery :eek: , and it takes a lot of real estate to hold them all). Just be careful about over-playing it.

Jon

* Edit: actually, that was unintentionally accurate

[ForwardObserver]

"allowed a man to carry a pair of ammo cans"

Which is the amount I actually accounted for each ammo bearer carrying. Then you implied each could carry 4. And I said, no way, for more than 2 minutes on a short haul.

From what I gather reading Fernando, that's exactly what he said: short hauls, as in from prepared position to prepared position, at a 30 to 60 meters distance. He also mentions the German Army cartwheels, which aren't very sexy to model or portray in a wargame, but I'm sure they came very in handy.

[Fernando]

"allowed a man to carry a pair of ammo cans"

Which is the amount I actually accounted for each ammo bearer carrying. Then you implied each could carry 4. And I said, no way, for more than 2 minutes on a short haul.

Look, I've carried 2 ammo cans in one hand (and a rifle case in the other) going to the firing range, on pavement, in time of profound peace - and it is awkward as heck. One in a hand is fine. One in each hand is awkward but possible. Two slung perhaps. Now get in MILES gear and do it for 2 hours on a hot day, double timing everywhere in panic, even pretend panic trying not to lose, instead of trying not to die. OK, not fun, but possible, and happily it gets lighter as the ammo is burned off (until you go to get more that is). But double it?

Crazy, nonsense, no way. Not in combat.

Sorry for my terrible English. I thought I have made clear that I was speaking about emergency movements for a short time and distance. I think I have repeated it about 4 or 5 times by now and it is not amusing because it means people don't read me or I am not able to make me understood by you.

Ammo carriers in an sMG got 2 cans each by regulation and all of them got a Tragegurt 34 by regulation too, so they dind't even have to carry them in their hands if they were on the march or on the attack. It means they could carry it for long distances. If the soldier was phisically fit, that is.

¿Could they get more cans than the standard seven cans per sMG team? Of course. In defensive positions when they got them from the group cart if they anticipated they would need them for an upcoming enemy attack. ¿Could they move all those addtional ammo for extended periods of time/distance? Obviously they didn''t, but you can carry a heavy load for a few dozen meters if you are not exhausted. That's what I have been saying till now.

[Fernando]

From what I gather reading Fernando, that's exactly what he said: short hauls, as in from prepared position to prepared position, at a 30 to 60 meters distance. He also mentions the German Army cartwheels, which aren't very sexy to model or portray in a wargame, but I'm sure they came very in handy.

Thanks FO! That's what I have been saying.

[Fernando]

Yes.

All those units/armies are not the same. In some cases it is like comparing apples and oranges. You cannot generalize on the German army, specially in 1944. The German army suffered catastrophic loses during the fateful Summer of 1944. However the worst loss was not equipment and weapons but veteran troops who had been properly trained most of the time. They were replaced by men who became more and more deficient in training. However most of the time it was not basic training but unit training. I.e. a MG team would know how to serve their weapon but their company wouldn't be properly trained to cooperate with the rest of the battalion companies.

However, if you take it as a whole and want to generalize at all costs then the German army on June 6th was NOT the same army on Dec. 16th. I am speaking of training, not weapons.

Sorry, I must go to bed. I must get up at 07.00 a.m. and it is past midnight here. See you tomorrow!

[JasonC]

Fernando - here is your problem. When you jump into a conversation to disagree with statements others have made, people expect that you are saying something other than what those already in that conservation, that you are explicitly pretending to correct, just said themselves. If you are, you have to defend the difference. If you aren't, the interruption is a bit of impertinence. Saying you are disagreeing and then backing away from what you said when challenged, to what the other fellow already said, manages the worst of both.

[JonS]

All those units/armies are not the same. In some cases it is like comparing apples and oranges. You cannot generalize on the German army, specially in 1944.

what I wrote:

I love these threads, where it's taken as read that the German army in 1944 was composed of highly trained, highly experienced, fully healthy men, in fully manned and fully equipped units.

Reading your posts, you appeared to be following the footsteps of many previous posters who've blithely assumed the German army to be full of trained, experienced, healthy men in fully manned and equipped units.

I know all those units are not the same, which is why I can generalise the German army in 1944, at least enough to say that perfect combination didn't actually exist. Anywhere.

[LongLeftFlank]

I'm kind of skimming over the he-said-she-said BS here, but I think Fernando is giving some pretty good insights into how skilful the late war Germans had become at displacing heavy machinegun teams as well as substantial ammo loads, even under battlefield conditions. A skill that continued to elude their opponents (who could rely on vehicle-mounted weapons instead of course).

Whether or not every last volksgrenadier was able to perform "by the book" strikes me as a red herring. The equipment and doctrine clearly aimed at that outcome.

After all, the bread and butter of the day-to-day 1944 German infantry defence on all fronts was based around (a) machine guns pin 'em, then ( mortars pound 'em. But they no longer had the manpower to provide 100% interlocking fields of fire sMG coverage across their entire fronts, still less in depth in multiple belts. So that meant that the weapons they did have would have to shift around rapidly in response to the situation, ideally among pre-prepared alternate positions that weren't too distant.

[JonS]

I think Fernando is giving some pretty good insights into how skilful the late war Germans had become at displacing heavy machinegun teams as well as substantial ammo loads

I don't think he's given any insights on that, has he? :confused:

Whether or not every last volksgrenadier was able to perform "by the book" strikes me as a red herring. The equipment and doctrine clearly aimed at that outcome.

Whether the army was able to enact the doctrine they supposedly adhered to seems to me a bit more than a red herring.

After all, the bread and butter of the day-to-day 1944 German infantry defence on all fronts was based around (a) machine guns pin 'em, then ( mortars pound 'em. But they no longer had the manpower to provide 100% interlocking fields of fire sMG coverage across their entire fronts, still less in multiple belts. So that meant that the weapons they did have would have to shift around rapidly in response to the situation, ideally among pre-prepared alternate positions that weren't too distant.

That's quite a leap, that doesn't necessarily follow.

[LongLeftFlank]

Well, if feasible it would be a highly economical and low-tech solution that reasonably trained and motivated infantry could execute themselves. And given that the Germans put their MGs in the hands of the most capable men they had left, I'd suspect that only the most raw new-formed units would be incapable of executing these kimds of tactics.

I freely admit I'm talking on the basis of relatively little knowledge here. But it makes simple rational sense to me as an expedient for an army that could no longer rely on supporting arms above battalion level (and so had few other options), so you'll need to cite some documentary evidence that backs up your repeated skepticism. AFAIK piercing German defensive belts was a persistent nightmare for the Allies up to the very end.

EDIT: Look, I get that shifting around a heavy machine gun and its train on a battlefield is a major feat of physical enduranc and risky as hell to boot. But the chronically undermanned Germans didn't have a whole lot of other options, that's my point. So this is what they resort to.

[JonS]

I freely admit I'm talking on the basis of relatively little knowledge here.

Sure. That's ok, and you definately aren't alone there. But presumably the aim of this thread is to advocate for some change to CM? If so, I think that advocacy should be well founded.

The last hundred-odd posts have been little more than "It's obvious!" (is it?) and "that's how I'd do it!" (orly?), which aren't very convincing.

If, on the other hand, we're just shooting the breeze, then breeze on

[ForwardObserver]

But presumably the aim of this thread is to advocate for some change to CM? If so, I think that advocacy should be well founded.

It's definitely time to wrap-up the different points of view, regardless of their actual position on the topic (MG's are just fine vs. MG's modeling needs tweaking). Obviously, the former position doesn't really need to propose much.

Maybe JasonC - who resurrected the discussion by drawing an analogy with well-established tactical wargames - might bother to collate into a single post the issues he sees with the tactical effectiveness of machine guns in the CMx2 engine, and what reasonable changes could be proposed to address those perceived shortcomings.

[ForwardObserver]

I don't think he's given any insights on that, has he? :confused:

Well, he's having some difficulties commanding his English, but I can quite follow what he is talking about.

Provided he's been serving as an infantry officer in the Spanish army, and if he's now in the reserve, it's quite likely he knows something about actual usage of the MG42. I think that a highly refined iteration of the original sMG 42 (and sMG 34) were still on infantry platoon TOE's for the Spanish army in the 1980's and 1990's.

[LongLeftFlank]

Sure. That's ok, and you definately aren't alone there. But presumably the aim of this thread is to advocate for some change to CM? If so, I think that advocacy should be well founded.

The last hundred-odd posts have been little more than "It's obvious!" (is it?) and "that's how I'd do it!" (orly?), which aren't very convincing.

If, on the other hand, we're just shooting the breeze, then breeze on

Well sure Jon, this is a bit of sidebar, but that fact hardly invalidates any of the earlier discussion re CMBN MG ineffectiveness against infantry at range, as much as you seem to wish that discussion would go away.

I'm still thinking about German machine gun design and tactical doctrine, but let me read up a bit more before I waste the time of more knowledgeable people here.

[poesel]

Fernando, I just wanted to assure you that I perfectly well understood what you said and what your intention was. Also thank you for providing information about handling that thing from someone who actually did it.

To add something to the discussion: the troop quality would IMHO not make a difference in the ability to train such a basic maneuver as to fold, transport and setup a MG. This is a basic drill which every Volkssturm member could learn in a few days. Going by Forrest Gump the performance would even be better the dumber the operators are!

Under fire - different thing of course.

[JonS]

I spent a weekend, recently, watching some guys who - from a standing start - have trained on the 81mm mortar pretty much continuously over the last six months, including four or five live-fire and combined-arms exercises, each at least a week long.

On that same weekend were some other guys who've trained for several years on the 81mm mortar, but only occasionally. Like, maybe, 4 or 5 weeks total over the course of several years.

Earlier on this year the second group were able to blow the first group out of the water with their - then - much higher overall skill level. Now the shoe is firmly on the other foot. Sure, the second group can carry out the basic drill of getting the mortars into and out of action in about the same time. But there is a whole lot more to effectively employing a mortar than just that simple drill. It's all those other little, and not so little, things that highlight the differences between the two groups.

To put that another way; I can teach any muppet how to boil water in an afternoon. It takes a bit longer to teach someone how to make good pasta.

[poesel]

So you are saying that you recently watched some guys with less than 2 months training over several years that were better than some other guys with 6 month of recent training? So the conclusion is that they shouldn't have trained that long? What is your point?

Also: better at what? Setup time, accuracy?

You are usually the first to cry foul at anecdotal evidence. If this isn't one I don't know.