John Kettler Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 BFC et al., I've had numerous run-ins with Panthers, both in the Demo and now, finally, in CMBN. One of the things which puzzles me is how a skirt hit by an AP shell fired from a tank/TD/AT gun produces only damage to the skirt, while the projectile somehow consistently and miraculously fails to carry through into the thin vertical side armor above the tracks. I can certainly understand how a bazooka or AT rifle grenade attack would end there, but I simply don't understand why the AP shell, or shot in the case of the CW, doesn't keep going and wreak all sorts of havoc once through the minor resistance posed by the skirt. Could you or someone else please explain the logic to me? Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amizaur Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 If I can join with similar questioon - I would like to ask BF what is the chance of immobilisation if an AP shell hits the track or suspension ? It should not be 100% or even close to that. Most of suspension/wheels hits would be ineffective, only produce minor damage. Some types of tracks, especially very heavy and wide tracks of PzV and PzVI also could take AP penetration and be only damaged, weakened, but do not loose mobility. I hope that chance for immoblisation depends on shell size and mass of the target tank (heavier the tank, heavier, wider and more robust it's tracks), for 76mm against for heavy Tiger/Panther tracks I would expect it to be about 50% chance for immobilization, the rest 50% of hits resulting in heavy track damage but no mobility kill. For suspension hits, against Panther/Tiger running gear, I wouldn't expect more than 20% chance for immobilisation from single hit, while 80% doing relatively little damage... I had a Tiger immobilised after a sinle bazooka round hit it's wheels. I hope it doesn't happen too often.... Not easy to test. One would need few hundreds/thousands of shots to get about a hundred track/suspension hits to get some idea of what are the probabilities. The issue with Panther side skirst is an interesting one. I've seen ineffective AP hits on skirts myself. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beatmasta Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 I don't think that the game engine has a way to portray a penetrating hit to some part end then deflect to somewhere else. So in this case it wont show that the hit penetrated the skirts and then hit side armor and was stopped there. It only shows the initial hit and if it penetrated all the way inside the tank or not. Shouldn't be a game breaker, or is it? If this was the case then it would also show the penetrating hit to the side armor and other hit inside the tank which didn't penetrate the other side of the tank. Or if it did then it would show the hit for the exit. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dieseltaylor Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 Churchill design allowed for many bogies to be shot out with it being immobilised. The interleaved kitty wheels also were meant to be tough to take out. The deliberate aiming at tracks appears to be banjaxed as I understand it with the BF model. I have not tested to see if superior crews are allowed or get any benefit in where to aim. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 I don't think that the game engine has a way to portray a penetrating hit to some part end then deflect to somewhere else. So in this case it wont show that the hit penetrated the skirts and then hit side armor and was stopped there. It only shows the initial hit and if it penetrated all the way inside the tank or not. Shouldn't be a game breaker, or is it? If this was the case then it would also show the penetrating hit to the side armor and other hit inside the tank which didn't penetrate the other side of the tank. Or if it did then it would show the hit for the exit. This is correct: you only see a notification on one hit location even if the shot goes through the entire vehicle. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 I have not tested to see if superior crews are allowed or get any benefit in where to aim. ISTR that Steve has stated that they certainly do not get any "called shot" ability. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 John Kettler, Set up a hot seat, wego, test. Fire at the side of a Panther with the weapons you indicated, above. The hot seat will allow you to play both sides. (If you dismount the Panthers first, it may allow more shots against them. Just sayin'...) When the hit text states "side skirt", then look at the damage details for the Panther. I would be surprised if you don't see some degradation of systems. That information is only available to the German player, hence the hot seat instruction. Let us know. Ken 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 If you dismount the Panthers first, it may allow more shots against them. Just sayin'...) Or make them Fanatic and give them a short covered arc. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amizaur Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 This is correct: you only see a notification on one hit location even if the shot goes through the entire vehicle. And there would not be "penetration" text displayed ? Even if the underlaying side armor was penetrated ? Uh... That could be fixed... To check if the side armor was really penetrated, we should make the test c3k described, and see if there are any crew casulties happening after skirt hits. Systems degradation maybe could come from external hits, but for crew being killed there would have to be a penetration or heavy spalling.... We could also set a Jagdpanther to fire at side of a Panther and see if any shots get's completly trough that would be a definite answer 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beatmasta Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 And there would not be "penetration" text displayed ? Even if the underlaying side armor was penetrated ? Uh... That could be fixed... Yes, there is text displayed if the hit makes a penetration through different armor layers (skirt, side). If you don't see that text, it has not made the penetration. Should be pretty simple. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 Not so simple. At first hit texts displayed the last plate penetrated. That meant that a tank hit in the front with a through and through penetration would display "Rear Hull Penetration", for example. That creates a bit of confusion. As would, "Front Penetration, Bulkhead Penetration, Rear Penetration". The system settled on was the FIRST penetration would be the location noted. In the case of skirts, it means you don't know if it penetrates the tank. But then, would you know that in real life? All you could see would be a hole in the skirt. I think the system, as it is now, is pretty good. Ken 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amizaur Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 WW2 AP didn't loose much of it's penetration because of layered armor. The biggest effect would be detonating shell's burster charge, but still the remaining part of the 76mm or 17pd shell in most cases should penetrate inner 40mm of armor. edit: well, especially the 17pd, which didn't have burster at all so it wouldn't lose almost any penetration after passing a skirt. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hister Posted August 6, 2012 Share Posted August 6, 2012 So skirts were used mainly to protect tracks I suppose? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted August 7, 2012 Author Share Posted August 7, 2012 Hister, On Panthers, the gap between the bottom of the mudguard and the top of the tracks, protecting the vulnerable lower side armor, which was vertical. Panzer IIIs and IVs could have turret only or turret + side skirts. The side skirts covered the upper side of the hull , lower hull and nearly all of the trackwork. A little history on Schuerzen (skirt armor) here http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=29887&highlight=schuerzen&page=6 Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hister Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 Thank you John - always like to get answers from historically savy people! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted August 8, 2012 Author Share Posted August 8, 2012 Hister, You're welcome! Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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