Questions for Steve (General PBEM) #6

[fatherof4]

What is the distance that a bazooka has a realistic (<10%) chance of penetrating the frontal armor of a PzIV?

[Doug Beman]

fo4, bazookas are range-independent. They use shaped-charge warheads, not solid-shot penetrators. They has the same chance of penetrating armor at point-blank range as at 100 meters, providing you can obtain a hit at the longer range.

If you meant to say "chance of hitting at range=x," ignore me.

DjB

[dano6]

A hit from a bazooka round should have somewhere around a 100% chance of penetration on a pzIV. The shaped charge warhead of the bazooka had a rated penetration of around 4 inches(100 mm) of armor. The pzIV a.H only had up to 80mm on the front and much less everywhere else. The hit, depending on the angle, should result in a penetration almost all of the time. Extreme angle shots could result in the bazooka round bouncing off though. And of course you must hit the tank first, and the closer it is, the better the chance of hitting it.

dano6

[fatherof4]

Thanks guys.

Basically, when I finally get this game (sigh), I'd like to know how far I should keep my tanks away from entrenched infantry. (100m? 200m?) I know it's not this simple but in Steel Panthers, I was always safe at the 2 hex range.

[This message has been edited by fatherof4 (edited 09-15-99).]

[Doug Beman]

Yeah, and one of the fastest ways to kill infantry was to shoot at them a few times with a tank (range didn't matter) a few times until the grunts got freaked out, and then pick them off as they ran.

(To restate what has already been beaten to death here) SP and CC3 harshly underrated the ability of infantry to weather fire from tanks.

DjB

[Guest Big Time Software]

200m is a pretty good standoff range. A Bazooka can, in theory, hit at that range (and if it does, will cause damange), but it is not likely to.

Doug, the only time I fell safe with my armor is with about a platoon around each one about 500m in front

Steve

[Thomm]

Dear Steve !

Moon keeps thinking that he is hit by HE shells from Fionns tank, whereas Fionn writes that he has only AP and smoke left ! Shouldn't there be a clearly distinguishable difference (different blast size) ? And: Can AP shells really harm infantry ?

Regards,

Thomm

[Doug Beman]

I think that, when Fionn wrote here "I'm out of tank-gun HE" he was talking about turns past 30. The turns where Martin's AAR said "I'm being hit by HE from the German tanks" were before 30.

DjB

[Thomm]

Doug, you seem to be right !

I wonder what that tank will be worth in city fighting without HE shells (coming back to the question of the effectivity of AP and MG fire on infantry in buildings): One tank cannot be everywhere and there are Bazookas around ...

Regards, Thomm

[Guest Big Time Software]

I think Doug is right, but Martin still was thought he was getting hit by HE when it was in fact AP. If he looked at the explosions and checked out the lack of damage, then added 1 plus 1, he would have figured out that it was just AP. A direct hit will take someone out, but generally it just keeps people's heads down when they are in cover (like a house).

Steve

[cannon]

I wouldn't think AP would be something a tank would be inclined to fire at infantry positions. I could see using it on fortifications or structures at close range, but it does seem a little bit like sniping with a cannon. Also AP is not something you would want to run the risk of running out of if you are an anti-tank asset. It seems to me that it should be pretty easy to tell when you are being shelled with AP vs HE. I don't know of any references for this one off hand. What does everyone else think?

Robert

[Strider]

I agree on the AP issue...If the player wants the tank to fire AP at Inf targets, so be it...unless we're looking at the effects of AP in the wrong way? (I do remember BTS telling us, we need to 're-think' how we play wargames ).

[Ken Talley]

I suspect that a tank would use AP vs infantry to accomplish a mission. I also imagine a tank would keep some sort of AP reserve just in case a high threat target should arrive. Perhaps a tank should cease using AP vs soft targets/non-high threat vehicles when they were down to 10 or 15 AP rounds.

Ken

[Guest Big Time Software]

Yeah, firing AP at soft targets was a logic flaw in the TacAI. It has been fixed so that it basically will only fire AP at Crunchies when in really bad shakes or if the human orders it to do so. We also calmed down Area Fire I think, which was also causing a problem with ammo consuption. In other words the tank used to fire using its RoF instead of a more logical pop one off and see if you got 'em Very few vehicles have plentiful ammo supplies (the Stuart is a mobile armo dump for example) to go firing stuff off at max speed.

Steve

[Henri]

I might as well sound off too...Both Fionn and Martin have played pretty well and made some serious mistakes, but aking into account fog-of-war...

It seemed to me that early on Martin concentrated too much on the important point of locating his teams with good fields of fire, apparently forgetting completely to think about how they were going to retreat. Fionn earlyon over-estimated the ability of comand and control in his plans in the town, which somehow inevitably fell apart when his units tried to regroup.

However it seems to me that Fionn, despite one or two serious mistakes (the Puma...) and some extreme bad luck (the airplane...) is playing better than Martin, because he is playing the psychological game, which can be devastating when well-used. That is why I am in the minority who voted that Fionn would win, even though I voted around move 25.

Early in the game, it seemed to me that neither player tried very hard to disrupt his opponent's thinking by means of maneuver. Fionn was considerably hampered by having his starting positions determined in advance. Had he had the choice, I doubt that he would have chosen the one given. Personally, I would have used a feint along one axis followed by a thrust with the main force along another axis, hoping that the enemy would have started to move to face the threat.Or maybe thrown a 50/50 die to determine if the feint should not really be the main thrust, which could be deadly if the opponent doesn't react ("Keep your enemy on the horns of a dilemma").

It's hard to say from this game, but inexperienced players in any game game can't stand uncertainty, and can be made to try to resolve the situation when it would be better to wait and to maneuver. Fionn used this to some extent in the later part of the game.

Everything considered, I think that the US had the original edge because of the constraint of German lines of approach, and especially because of the airplane. Would it have been reasonable in WWII to expect such a German force to engage without at least one AA gun? How many would give the edge to Martin at this stage if Fionn still had his Panther?

Henri

[Guest Big Time Software]

Henri,

Good points. To be fair to Martin, I didn't design the scenario to allow him very much creativity in terms of keeping Fionn off balance. His freedom came from how he wanted to deal with the village force. He largely stuck to my "suggested" plan (i.e. the starting positions), but made some interesting deployment decisions that could have hurt him short term but didn't really do that much harm.

As for Martin not planning fallback positions... I was a bastard and didn't give him many choices However, he really should have abandoned some positions sooner than he did, especially once he took the village and Fionn took the wall line. He lost a lot of valuable support weapons for nothing. He could have also saved some of his wall force if he had pulled out a turn or two earlier. Still, that little battle there probably decided the game (Fionn just took way too many losses).

Fionn's axis of deployment was a realistic one. No armored force of that size would go down a single road when there were other viable options as well. There is also the fear of flank attacks. Fionn didn't know, for example, that Martin had no tanks in the woods to the North and South. Imagine if Fionn hadn't advanced through the southern woods and Martin had even one Sherman 75 in there. Imagine what a problem that would have caused!

In terms of AAA support, a German force of that size *might* have had something, but it wasn't a guaranteed thing. AAA guns were not organic to either a Panzergrenadier (Armd) Company or a battalion's Heavy Weapons Company. In any case the guns would have most likely been towed and therefore would have been of limited use on the attack. Still, better than nothing

Steve

[Doug Beman]

Yeah, but Fionn fell into the same trap of reacting instead of maneuvering when he counter-attacked early on. He would have done well to sit tight and massacre Martin's infantry. Considering how devastating the German arty was, that could have drastically altered the appearance of the battle now.

DjB

(posted right after Steve's response to Henri)

[This message has been edited by Doug Beman (edited 09-21-99).]

[Lee]

Steve, you mentioned that aircraft making attack runs can be

damaged as well as shot down by AA fire. Does CM accurately

model the differences in protective armor that various aircraft

had (and just sheer toughness of design and construction of

some aircraft, ex., the P-47 is built like a flying stone block

)? These sorts of things make a huge difference in how

easy or difficult it is to cause significant damage to or shoot

down a plane. For example, the P-51 with it's liquid-cooled

engine was quite vulnerable to ground fire. Also, the angle at

which the aircraft is hit is important. A P-47 hit from the

front would receive a lot of protection for the pilot and the

aircraft in general from that massive radial engine. If it were

hit from the rear after it had just made it's bombing/strafing

run it would be considerably more vulnerable. Does CM take into

account these different angles when tracking AA fire?

[This message has been edited by Lee (edited 09-22-99).]

[Bil Hardenberger]

Steve,

This is in response to your comment on another thread about how Fionn loses a halftrack in the town:

Actually the fact that Fionn loses another halftrack in this way is no surprise to me.

How many (including the Puma)has he lost due to pure impatience? One is too many in my opinion. The halftracks should never get into even bazooka range, not to mention grenade, (they don't have to) and unsupported in a town?

He does tend to push the issue doesn't he? What ever happened to synchronization, cooperation, and timing?

A little recon would have saved countless lives for him. Not only that, but if he had only slowed down a little. He had 60 minutes to complete the scenario, he could have used some of that to properly clear the woods, and now the town, before committing his halftracks or armor. I understand that at the beginning he was in a rush to save the FJ troops in the town, but once they were taken out time was not such an over-riding factor.

It is fun to watch though isn't it?

[Doug Beman]

Yeah, Fionn pushed a little too hard, but I don't think an infantry recon into the town's outskirts would have done much more. At this point, Martin still has a sizable advantage in infantry numbers, and for Fionn to march in their with a couple of squads likely would have resulted in more infantry deaths, and Fionn has already made the point several times that infantry are more important to him right now than vehicles (he's playing from the standpoint of "what if this were the first battle of a campaign; I'd have to set up a town defense, and infantry are the heart of urban combat")

So, yeah, he should have taken his time, but I don't see any way for him to advance into the town even with combined arms and not take unsustainable losses to his infantry.

Remember that Fionn's morale is hovering around 30%. Martin's is around 40%. If Fionn lets his infantry get into any sort of close-range crap-throw against far superior numbers, his guys are going to start surrendering in large numbers.

DjB

[Guest aaronb]

"don't see any way for him to advance into the town even with combined arms and not take unsustainable losses to his infantry."

Well, in this Alpha version of CM, he has unlimited MG ammo to work with. Set the HT's back about 250 metres, and blaze away. If Fionn hadn't lost so many to impatience, they would have formed and impressive, and endless, firebase.

Rushing them forward improves the firepower, but leaves them vulnerable (as we've seen). The moral: range is more important that raw firepower.

[Bil Hardenberger]

Doug,

As usual I agree with you 100%. However, if he had done it correctly from the start he wouldn't have lost so many troops and would not be in an inferior position now. I guess that is what I was trying to say before.

At this point in the game, I think it is a big mistake to even try for the town. If it is indeed, as you say, his thinking that this is the first battle of a campaign, then he should hang on to what he has and wait for reinforcements to help take the town.

Of course it's easy to be critical when you are on the outside looking in.

Here's hoping he doesn't piss his mark IV away in a like manner.

[This message has been edited by Bil Hardenberger (edited 09-21-99).]

[Mike D]

"In terms of AAA support, a German force of that size *might* have had something, but it wasn't a guaranteed thing. AAA guns were not organic to either a Panzergrenadier (Armd) Company or a battalion's Heavy Weapons Company. In any case the guns would have most likely been towed and therefore would have been of limited use on the attack. Still, better than nothing"

Steve,

I cannot speak to the above being true, or not. Although I'm sure you've done your homework and know what you're talking about. However, according to the book Michael Wittman and the Tiger Commander's of the Liebstandarte, there was an organic motorized AA platoon attached to the 101st SS Heavy Panzer Battalion prior to its deployment to Normandy. The platoon consisted of 3 Vierlingsflak vehicles which were modified 8 ton prime mover HT's w/ a quad 20mm AA gun on the rear deck. I assume being there were 3 of them that they were intended to be deployed 1 each to each of the 3 tank companies.

It's also extemely interesting to note that all/most of the Tiger I's in the battalion had had their turret MG's removed and mounted on top of the tank for AA protection (at least for the march to the front). There are several pictures of some of the tanks w/ these MG's mounted on top of the turret as they headed to the front (pp. 367-374).

There are also several references made to being attacked by enemy dive bombers during the march where the 4x20mm AA guns on the mod. HT's and MG's mounted on the tanks fired on the enemy aircraft. Including one ref. to a downed enemy plane credited to tank commander Bobby Warmbrunn during one segment of the march where he and at least two other tank commanders fired furioiusly at the attacking aircraft (p. 316). After the one plane was downed the remaining fly boys reportedly turned tail and broke off the attack. There is a later ref. to another FB attack on the quad20mm AA platoon itself which also downed another allied plane.

While I do not know if the quad20mm vehicles followed the Tiger companies/platoons into combat (I assume that they may very well have), it is readily apparent that the tank commanders themselves were more than willing and able to defend themselves to some degree even if the flak units were not around. That is assuming of course that they kept the MG's mounted in this fashion when the went into combat vs. putting them back into the turret mounts and that they were not having to deal w/ other matters on the ground. If I see a pic/read more on this as I go through the book I'll let you know.

Finally, it is interesting to note the other organic units attached to the battalion. In fact these units, together w/ the flak platoon, make up the 4th (Light) Company of the Battalion. A pioneer platoon w/6 HT's, 2 motorcycles, and a Kubelwagen. An armored Recon Platoon w/ 2 HT's for each squad and 1 for the Platoon HQ. And a scout platoon consisting of 3 squads each having 3 Kubelwagens and 1 additional Kubelwagen for the platoon HQ.

Regards,

Mike D

aka Mikester

"A fools wisdom knows no bounds other than the infinite space between his ears."

[Doug Beman]

aaronb, I'm pretty sure that even massed MG fire from halftracks (especially ones a couple hundred meters away) won't seriously suppress infantry in good positions (such as inside a house). It takes some serious explosives, or else close-range assault, to really screw up infantry in good positions.

Look at how well infantry from each side have held up to repeated close-range assaults and/or heavy arty fire (Martin's center troops stood up longer than I had expected, and those lone 2 SS Panzergrenadieren that stormed the hill and took it away from a US squad)

In addition, staying away from the town gives Martin all sorts of time to set up defenses in places where Fionn can't see. He'd be able to take his time, check things over, and be good n ready for when Fionn does come in.

At this stage, the person under time crunch is Martin. He has to redeploy a bunch of low-morale troops, often in LOS of enemy MGs. If Fionn can keep up the pressure, keep Martin from getting a breathing space to set up his numerical superiority, he has a chance at something better than US victory. Standing off just gives Martin prep-time.

Standing off and whaling away on the town might cause Martin some casualties, and keep Fionn out of possible return fire, but it won't heavily impact Martin's redeployments, and it won't take the town.

DjB

[Guest Big Time Software]

Bil, while I agree that Fionn was rash in a couple of places, the HT he lost in the village was a calculated GAMEY "cheat" to try and spot guys. In Steel Panthers you could drive the HT around and enemy units would pop into view. So his HT was not supposed to survive in his mind, only draw out information. But it didn't work and his HT went up in flames.

Most of Fionn's HTs were knocked out by air and artillery fire. All of his armored vehicles (except for the Puma) were lost in normal battlefield conditions. The problem with this map for the attacker is that you really HAD to rush. Fionn's problem was that he rushed in an uncoordinated manner and that was what hurt him so bad. In other words, the fact that he rushed forward wasn't the problem, rather HOW he rushed forward.

The unlimited ammo thing wouldn't have helped Fionn at all. First of all, he lost most of his HTs do to enemy action beyond his control (5 in the southern woods, 1 in the center from mortar fire, 4 from air attacks, 2 from hidden bazookas, at least 1 from HMG fire, etc.) On top of that, the MG isn't very effective at long distances. Keeps some guys' heads down, but it would have been a drop in the bucket. Remember that CM's vehicles aren't like the über ones in other games. It would have caused Martin a mild annoyance, nothing more.

Mike, yes, most Panzer regiments or indendent battalions had organic AAA support. However, most everybody else had little (artillery sometimes) to none (infantry). There were generally assets at Regimental or Divisional level or on loan from Corps or Army forces. The flak guns would go with the tanks, but would have to keep their distance because they were easy prey from the ground.

As far as shooting down planes goes, it did happen. The battle for Schmidt and Kommerscheidt listed 3 (probably P38s) being shot down by a Regimental sized German force. Certainly tank and AFV AA MGs could have an impact, but as said elsewhere this hasn't been added yet.

Lee, I've asked Charles for details.

Steve