sburke Posted May 19, 2012 Share Posted May 19, 2012 Can't get Zeppelin out of my head every time I start tinkering with a map for Veghel Anyone the point of this thread is to ask for some thoughts from folks on some ideas for mapping Holland. I am gonna go out on a limb here and suggest BF is probably not going to include anything specific for dikes. It doesn't really seem necessary as terrain elevation changes appear to handle this fairly well. What I am struggling with is the Zuid-Willems Canal. I am trying to work within the context of the Gamers TCS game Screaming Eagles in Holland. In it they have the Canal as a 10m obstacle for LOS, but when I google map the canal..well 10m seems a bit of a stretch. They list the same for dikes and RR embankments. Those seem fairly close to what I can see and are recreatable in CM now with the tools at hand. Is anyone more familiar with the canal and what might be appropriate for creating embankments? I figure we may see new buildings and flavor objects etc, but I'd at least like to have some base maps with roads, dikes, RR and the canals ready for the module. I am expecting I'll have 5-6 4x4 km maps to cover the full extent of the boardgame map as well as a map created around Veghel and one for Eerde as focal points of the 2 days of the game. No there will be no AI plans etc though you wil all be free to do with these as you will if I can get them done. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted May 21, 2012 Author Share Posted May 21, 2012 Well research so far has netted a couple items, the most interesting being this story. http://s362974870.onlinehome.us/forums/air/index.php?showtopic=168409 It also includes a pic of a dyke (though not along the canal) and 10 meters seems pretty close. Also looking at Veghel, the amount of development between the canal and Eerde probably eliminated quite a bit of the dyke along the canal. Still looking for good images or info if anyone has any. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broadsword56 Posted May 21, 2012 Share Posted May 21, 2012 Nice pics. Looks more and more like BFC will need to give us new house models to get the built-up zones and farms looking properly Dutch. Dikes themselves should be no problem with the map editor we have. The other key thing is raised roads, where those existed. We can manually create them by running a road along a narrow line of 10m higher action squares. But it would be important to underlay them with heavy forest tiles to keep vehicles from being able to enter/exit them at will. That was the tactically significant thing about raised roads in Holland -- that vehicles using them couldn't get off them due to the steepness/height of the embankments, they forced units to stay in column, and they skylined the vehicles as targets for the enemy. One dead or immobilized vehicle on a raised road like this would make the road useless for that entire CMBN battle -- which would be realistic IMHO. Dozer tanks or other vehicles would have eventually been able to push or tow the dead vehicle out of the way to reopen the road, but only later and not typically under enemy fire in the midst of the battle. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted May 21, 2012 Author Share Posted May 21, 2012 I am wondering how the drainage ditches may get done. LLF had mantioned difficulties in another thread trying to recreeate them and for scenes like this, we don't really have much to work with. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bundesarchiv_Bild_183-S73822,_Arnheim,_Grenadiere_gehen_durch_Gr%C3%A4ben_vor.jpg 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
undercovergeek Posted May 21, 2012 Share Posted May 21, 2012 youd have to create a row of tiles below the default level of the map and cover the sides in extra long grass, the issue being the ditch would be 8m wide - ive done similar on a map and its effective but it wont look like this 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted May 22, 2012 Author Share Posted May 22, 2012 youd have to create a row of tiles below the default level of the map and cover the sides in extra long grass, the issue being the ditch would be 8m wide - ive done similar on a map and its effective but it wont look like this Yeah I had to sink it 2 meters (which in turn affects the water level in the canal) and though it will give some of the tactical benefits it doesn't look great. Still it may be a workable compromise. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pak40 Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 This .&linkText=Back+to+bibliographic+information]site was posted not long ago in the forums. It has 1:25,000 topo maps of Market Garden areas. Click on the map called Vechel. Vechel (Veghel) is in the NW corner of that map. Contours are brown lines and are only every 10m on this particular map. Veghel is so low and flat that it doesn't even break the 10m contour. And judging from the modern Street View in Google, not much has changed. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted May 22, 2012 Author Share Posted May 22, 2012 This site was posted not long ago in the forums. It has 1:25,000 topo maps of Market Garden areas. Click on the map called Vechel. Vechel (Veghel) is in the NW corner of that map. Contours are brown lines and are only every 10m on this particular map. Veghel is so low and flat that it doesn't even break the 10m contour. And judging from the modern Street View in Google, not much has changed. Thanks Pak40, I'd forgotten this one. DL'd the image and viewer. Interesting as it seems to confirm the Gamers map in that there isn't much in the way of dikes. Primarily it is the canal and RR embankments. It also implies standard heights are 2.5 meters and higher. 10 would seem a bit much then. I'll check the google streetview I am pretty sure I saw the RR crossing there and hopefully that can give me a ballpark on the height. Seems I may be worrying too much about the drainage ditches alongside dikes. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
undercovergeek Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 Yeah I had to sink it 2 meters (which in turn affects the water level in the canal) and though it will give some of the tactical benefits it doesn't look great. Still it may be a workable compromise. That's the one although I made the sides more sheer so it looked more like a channel... Forgot about the effect on water unless you gave the canal a floor only 1m lower than the Max size of the side.... If the sides were 4m high could you have the inside of the canal at 3m high? (all above the default level obviously) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pak40 Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 No need to put water in the ditch. Just put some marsh tiles in it to simulate a wet but not full ditch. Marsh will slow a man down just as good as the shallow water tile. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted May 22, 2012 Author Share Posted May 22, 2012 No need to put water in the ditch. Just put some marsh tiles in it to simulate a wet but not full ditch. Marsh will slow a man down just as good as the shallow water tile. Yeah I didn't bother with water. It just means if I have a dyke between the water side will be at the height i set the bottom of the drainage ditch. This in turn make the ground level on the drainage ditch side of the dyke automatically 2 m higher than the canal. Not that big an issue just one of those I needed to be aware of. Once I got the look right I figured I'd work on the actual feel and was likely looking to use marsh like you'd mentioned. I figured the drainage ditches are gonna be a bit mucky, narrow and hard to run along but they should provide for some cover and concealment. In retrospect now though beyond the canal and the RR embankments there is not much in the way of true dykes in the AO. Next question I need to look at that this discussion has made me wonder about are drainage ditches within the fields. I really need to spend some time on google earth at low level to see if these are at all prevalent. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broadsword56 Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 From what I've read about the US airborne AO in Market Garden, the drainage ditches were prevalent and a big headache for vehicles -- which is what tended to keep vehicles so road-bound. The small-scale maps will tend to show the field patterns as lots of little elongated strips of cropland, with frequent ditches between them as field separators. Great thread here where mappers have discussed this in detail: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2633506 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted May 22, 2012 Author Share Posted May 22, 2012 From what I've read about the US airborne AO in Market Garden, the drainage ditches were prevalent and a big headache for vehicles -- which is what tended to keep vehicles so road-bound. The small-scale maps will tend to show the field patterns as lots of little elongated strips of cropland, with frequent ditches between them as field separators. Great thread here where mappers have discussed this in detail: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2633506 Very interesting. Dang I need to go back to that map Pak 40 posted and go back through the legend. I was paying more attention at the time to dykes. If the map simovitch posted is the same source it has an indication of ditches (the distinction between ditches and fences seems a bit blurry, but hey gotta start somewhere). I also need to read up a bit more and understand the actual impact on armor movement. In a sense I was aware of the issues of MG, but the actual terrain conditions and off road movement concerns I have only a cursory understanding. Loading up the kindle now with a couple different books for the next trip. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broadsword56 Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 Definite must-read: http://www.amazon.com/HELLS-HIGHWAY-Airborne-Battleground-Europe/dp/0850528372/ref=sr_1_fkmr2_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1337722561&sr=8-2-fkmr2 Not only is the book a great summary of the small-unit actions specific to this sector; the author includes a lot of then-and-now photos and detail about the locations that I haven't seen anywhere else. It's also a travel guide for those who want to visit the sites today. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongLeftFlank Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 Problem with marsh-filled ditches is that infantry won't stay in them (i.e. taking the benefit of the cover afforded by the depression). They insist on trying to path around the marsh at every opportunity. My workaround is to fill the ditches with Heavy forest and run a Hedge along the bottom -- infantry tend to follow the Hedge if the waypoints are set short. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted May 23, 2012 Author Share Posted May 23, 2012 Problem with marsh-filled ditches is that infantry won't stay in them (i.e. taking the benefit of the cover afforded by the depression). They insist on trying to path around the marsh at every opportunity. My workaround is to fill the ditches with Heavy forest and run a Hedge along the bottom -- infantry tend to follow the Hedge if the waypoints are set short. Hmm didn't think of that one, but I do recall now you discussing that in your Carillon map thread. Wonder if mud will produce the same effect. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broadsword56 Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 Also possibly by running wire fence alongside the ditches (as in your Holland photo) that will also make the troops go along it instead of taking shortcuts out of the ditches and into the fields. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockinHarry Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 Wouldn´t something like that be sufficient? Fences and bridge is just for size reference. IMO this gets the looks halfway right and to emphasize the marsh terrain "effect", I´d rather set the scenarios terrain condition to muddy, which also makes the paved roads more important. Haven´t tested AI handling of this yet though. Ditches use shallow fords. Canals use water, while the left one has gravel road underneath (changes cliff ground texture somewhat). Certain terrain types have different molding capabilities, that one can work with for different reasons. I.E pavements and roads do flatten, craters and bocage do some smaller hard to control mesh adjustments, while trenches and bunkers do other interesting to work with moldings. All that combined with single AS height adjustments. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockinHarry Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 Yet another interesting combo: Shallow ford and low bocage at base AS height -1 (19 in this case). It makes the ditch somewhat smaller, due to the molding of low bocage and likely offers somewhat more cover and concealment for infantry. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockinHarry Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 5m high railroad embankment with downsloping side track (25m --> 20m): 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
undercovergeek Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 nice looking map that is! the only problem with the low bocage surrounding shallow ford is the guys would never be able to get out without blasting 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockinHarry Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 nice looking map that is! the only problem with the low bocage surrounding shallow ford is the guys would never be able to get out without blasting Yep, I just used the full low bocage for quick showing the idea. Off course would rather use the gaped version instead. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broadsword56 Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 Plus, I think we'd have a player revolt if we get to Holland only to discover the hated bocage on the maps again! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockinHarry Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 Plus, I think we'd have a player revolt if we get to Holland only to discover the hated bocage on the maps again! Yes for sure! But it´s about expedients, unless BFC does the right stuff for MG release (...though I won´t bet on it). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted May 23, 2012 Author Share Posted May 23, 2012 one never knows, my luck I will figure something to apply, create 6 huge maps and then find on MG release they have added a drainage ditch terrain type... I have the RR embankments in including underpasses on the Veghel map itself. Need to check and make sure the height is good as I lowered them from the 10m I originally had after taking some looks through google maps. Need to drive some vehicles through just to be sure I don't have an issue there. The bocage idea looks interesting, it'll provide the cover without having to sink the ditch quite as deep. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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