ATG or tank behind hedge row

[Wunsche]

Here's the problem I have run into:

I have no mortars, but I run into allied ATGs or tanks positioned on the other side of a hedge. Their guns have good line of sight, but my tanks don't spot them. Is there any way to destroy them with my tanks?

For the ATG, I have tried to use tank HE in area fire mode, but it doesn't seem to penetrate the hedge and knockout the gun. Is my only hope to flank them with infantry/surpress them with MG fire.

And is there any solution to the tank on the other side of the hedge? Thanks in advance.

[womble]

ATGs are tricky things to winkle out with Edit: direct HE. Throw enough lead and HE downrange to keep them suppressed, though, and you can approach from the front, if you can't flank.

The only real direct answer to the tank (other than flanking it and cutting it off) is another (better) tank. Your tanks will spot the enemy given enough time, which is why they have to be better: they need to sit there and shrug off hits while looking for targets. If you have the enemy's armour located, look for ways to approach them that don't expose your own flanks to the friends of the one you're hunting. Or just let the enemy sit behind their hedge and go another way.

[YankeeDog]

These are difficult tactical situations, so there is no easy solution. You may have to settle for trading one of your tanks (or a few of your infantrymen) for one of his units. Such is the nature of tactical wargaming...

For the ATG, decent-sized direct fire HE (75mm+) or a good volume of small arms fire to the front should suppress it without too much difficulty, but your observation that it is difficult to kill an ATG behind bocage frontal fire is correct -- it can happen, but the chance of any individual HE round getting through the hedge and knocking out the gun is low. And small arms fire usually won't kill the gun crew from the front -- you have to flank it so that at least one unit's fire is getting around the gun shield.

So it can take a lot of direct fire HE shots to kill an ATG behind bocage. And even if you do manage to KO the gun with direct fire HE, it is often difficult to know for sure that you have succeeded -- the gun will usually go "heads down" after a few nearby HE hits, and then you don't know whether you've actually killed it, or if it will "revive" in a minute or two once the fire is lifted. So plot a Area Fire order to the gun's location and keep up the area fire until you get a unit close enough to verify or finish the kill. Ideally, you want direct fire HE to get the gun crew to go "heads down" initially, but depending on details, once the gun is suppressed, you may be able to keep it heads down with just MG area fire, which will conserve your HE. It takes a lot less intense fire to keep a unit that is already suppressed down, then it does to get a unit to go heads down in the first place.

For an enemy tank behind a hedgerow in good ambush position, you are most definitely at a disadvantage. So try to compensate by giving your tank(s) every advantage you can. Make sure the enemy tank is buttoned by putting harassing small arms onto it with a sharpshooter or distant MG, and, similarly, make sure your tanks are unbuttoned when they engage. Also, make sure your tanks are "aware" of the enemy tank via the C2 net before they move to engage -- this will increase their chance of spotting it quickly. Finally, if you can engage with two or more tanks, try to engage from two different vectors, so that the enemy tank can't quickly switch targets if it knocks out one of your tanks first; this will mean you get at the worst a 1:1 trade-off.

Also, for both situations, if you have any tanks with smoke shells, consider whether laying smoke in front of the tank and/or gun to temporarily blind them makes sense; this may give you a maneuver option that allows you to engage from a more advantageous position.

[sburke]

For the ATG, I have found the key to be three things

suppression

suppression

suppression

and I have mostly learned that from my opponents watching my own ATGs. People miss a lot of opportunity because they are looking for the kill. Make the gun cower and you can just about send a team up to the hedge and kill them without worry. Suppression can be mortar, direct fire, small arms etc depending on how close you can get etc.

As to the Tank, an AT team (especially if you have Shreks) seems to have no issues with bocage. Lob a few rounds in there and so far my AT teams behind bocage easily spot tanks in similar position across a field long before the tank spots them.

And as YD says- smoke. It's ideal for allowing you to get into position while your opponent can't see what you are up to.

[Hilts]

What I want to know about bocage is, if it is such thick vegetation to stop the blast of a high explosive shell how come a tank can just drive up to it, stick it's barrel through and then see through it to fire? Has anybody actually seen a picture of this?

[YankeeDog]

What I want to know about bocage is, if it is such thick vegetation to stop the blast of a high explosive shell how come a tank can just drive up to it, stick it's barrel through and then see through it to fire? Has anybody actually seen a picture of this?

Bear in mind the vegetation of a tall bocage isn't of uniform thickness from base to top. At the base is a thick 1-2m high berm of earth, rocks and roots. This is probably what is stopping most of the shells. An AT gun is very low to the ground, after all.

Above this is the thickest part of the vegetation, thick bushes interspersed with the trunks of small to mid-size trees. Still pretty good at stopping HE shell, or at least thick enough that most HE shells set to quick fuse will detonate as soon as they make contact, but shrapnel from the detonations will have a hard time penetrating the thick vegetation. However, when viewed from close-up, this vegetation still has small gaps where an MG or AT gun can set up and gain LOF.

Finally, the top is the thinning out portions of taller bushes and trees. Still offers some concealment, but not much of an obstacle to HE shells, or rifle bullets for that matter.

[Bradley Dick]

Also, just because you have an ATG crew flanked and under fire, don't expect that they will fall easily. ATG crews are incredibly resilient and hard to destroy.

[YankeeDog]

Here's a good pictoral example:

There's no good vertical reference in this image, so it's hard to tell for sure exactly where a tank's gun barrel would line up, vs. an ATGs, but you can see how the vegetation is thinner at the top, with some light passing through. So the gunbarrel/gunsight of a Sherman, at over 2m above the ground, might be able to see over the bocage, especially if the tank rolls right up the the berm and elevates the bow of the tank a bit.

However, low-slung ATG could probably also find a place to stick its barrel through the vegetation down low (or the crew could make a firing loophole with a few minutes of work with some basic hand tools), and the gun would gain very good cover from the thick branches and earthen berm.

[Wunsche]

Thanks for the advice, guys. Off to see if I can execute the plan!

[winkelried]

This might be interesting

[Bradley Dick]

This might be interesting

That's an awesome little representation.