Pandur Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 this is the oddest thing about C2 for me and this did not change from CMSF. this when i place troops in the editor(its the same on map actualy), problem manifests in urban terrain. when i place a company on the map, i almost need to stack the platoons on top of each other in urban terrain in oder to have the platoon HQ´s linked with Co HQ. now platoon HQ´s have no radio but i thought US halftracks have radios at least, and the company has many halftracks(and all show radio in damage tab) yet i cant make a C2 link to Co HQ when i place a halftrack near the platoon HQ. simply put, how can i link a full company fully into C2 with their battalion HQ without stacking the plaoon HQs and so the platoons in top of each other to get them all in link with Co HQ. should i try radio jeeps? i read there is something like this, could this work? by the way, platoon HQs cant make link with Co HQ but i have magical C2 link with battlion HQ almost over the whole map without radio or anything. i dont understand this at all. this is not logical from what i see. EDIT: sorry i wanted to post this in maps and mods section 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stikkypixie Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 this is the oddest thing about C2 for me and this did not change from CMSF. this when i place troops in the editor, problem manifests in urban terrain. when i place a company on the map, i almost need to stack the platoons on top of each other in urban terrain in oder to have the platoon HQ´s linked with Co HQ. now platoon HQ´s have no radio but i thought US halftracks have radios at least, and the company has many halftracks(and all show radio in damage tab) yet i cant make a C2 link to Co HQ when i place a halftrack near the platoon HQ. simply put, how can i link a full company fully into C2 with their battalion HQ without stacking the plaoon HQs and so the platoons in top of each other to get them all in link with Co HQ. should i try radio jeeps? i read there is something like this, could this work? by the way, platoon HQs cant make link with Co HQ but i have magical C2 link with battlion HQ almost over the whole map without radio or anything. i dont understand this at all. this is not logical from what i see. EDIT: sorry i wanted to post this in maps and mods section Did you wait long enough? I.e. it takes sometimes to re-establish contact, especially after movement order. Also if you are using the little green lights to determine C2 might be misleading. If you see a green light next to the Battalion HQ, it means that it is *possible* to make contact with the Btn HQ. In other words the Company HQ is in contact with Battalion HQ. This does NOT mean that you platoon HQ is in contact with the Btn HQ however. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pandur Posted February 21, 2012 Author Share Posted February 21, 2012 Did you wait long enough? I.e. it takes sometimes to re-establish contact, especially after movement order. usually i wait 15 to 45 seconds befor i judge if C2 can be linked or not, by then it mostly worked or never worked after, so i think this wait time should be good? Also if you are using the little green lights to determine C2 might be misleading. If you see a green light next to the Battalion HQ, it means that it is *possible* to make contact with the Btn HQ. In other words the Company HQ is in contact with Battalion HQ. This does NOT mean that you platoon HQ is in contact with the Btn HQ however. thats good to know, thanks, makes sense again. in the mean time i looked for radio jeeps, tell you what i can not buy any vehicles with radio as single vehicle. bad! now i found a radio jeep in the company, i moved it to to the platoon HQ, no joy, no like up, it can only use the radio when sitting inside the jeep(same goes for the halftracks) and as soon as that happens i loose voice and visual contact to the squads and teams around. where ever i try to go in and fix it the cat bites its tail. i cant do this because of that and so on... . i try to find that one post again that explained the C2, it was linked somewhere recently, if anyone know what i mean and where it is please link it, maybe i can find a solution in there. EDIT: just read in the manual, it explicitly says that a platoon hq would benefit from a radio vehicle to link with Co HQ. page 100, 2nd sentence. so there must be a way and it should work as i thought it should, i keep on trying 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pandur Posted February 21, 2012 Author Share Posted February 21, 2012 oh well, can anyone explain this to me. the manual say this should work, this is platoon HQ and in in "between" a radio jeep with 1 driver. yet after waiting no link to A Co. the jeep is liked with A Co. expirience level of troops is green. there is nothing i could see that i do wrong, is this a bug? is this not known? anyone got this to work in his scenarios or battles? iam at a loss here, last thing i could try is maybe the radio jeep only works in battle but not in editor deployment mode. but i dont see why this should be like that. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akd Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Your image is not showing. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pandur Posted February 21, 2012 Author Share Posted February 21, 2012 i see it, its a png file though. i try to fix that asap update; should be visible now, changed to jpg 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stikkypixie Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 i see it, its a png file though. i try to fix that asap I can see the image by explicitly copying the link. I noticed that the HQ is not in command. It doesn't have a radio listed as equipment. Is the jeep equipped with a radio? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pandur Posted February 21, 2012 Author Share Posted February 21, 2012 thats the point, sure its a radio jeep(at least it calls itself multipurpuse vehicle jeep(radio)) and manual page 100 sentence 2 says platoon HQ benefits form radio vehicle to link with Co HQ. now with this not working you can blow the whole C2 system in urban battles it seems. you need to overstack the platoons hard in order to keep em in C2 with Co HQ. by the way, i ran a quick test, new map new bought battalion, tried RT play in battle, radio jeep not working, expirience lvl seems to be irelelvant, i bought reg or vet troops. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akd Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 If you put the Platoon HQ in the jeep with radio, they will use the radio. The armored infantry platoon HQ doesn't have a radio because it is normally mounted in a radio-equipped HT. Page 100 sentence 2 refers to on-map mortar's ability to receive fire missions if a vehicle with radio is stationary nearby. This was added specifically so that armored mortar carriers could function effectively in their intended role. Also note that C2 is not always fully shown shown during editor deployment, but that is not the issue seen above. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pandur Posted February 21, 2012 Author Share Posted February 21, 2012 i am realy sorry it must be my english or something. If you put the Platoon HQ in the jeep with radio, they will use the radio. The armored infantry platoon HQ doesn't have a radio because it is normally mounted in a radio-equipped HT. i know that, this is a no brainer, but when i sit the platoon HQ into the jeep or halftrack, doesnt matter, it gets link with Co HQ but looses all the links with its squads and teams which is much worse. but i have said that already. and this can be in no way the "purpose" of the radio jeep. every halftrack can fill this role, but the goal is for platoon HQ to gain C2 with squads/teams AND company HQ and i believe the radio jeep is here for that but it doesnt work as intended. the radio jeep should be able to extend and manipulate C2 range and in this case provide a radio to the platoon HQ when the platoon HQ is in close proximity but not sitting inside. as said when i sit the platoon HQ into a jeep or halftrack none of its squads or teams can see it even if i park them right in front of a squad which leaves them even more useless. EDIT iam not sure if you guys understand what i mean. i dont want either or, a chain does not work either or, a chain needs to be linked from start to end to work and this is not possible it seems. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pandur Posted February 21, 2012 Author Share Posted February 21, 2012 sorry for the many posts, but to make it extra clear i took out my paint skills and made a picture, maybe that helps you guys see what i mean. S = squad but can also be a team the rest should be clear 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akd Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Have you tried it in the editor only? I believe HQs mounted in vehicles is one of the instances where C2 is not fully resolved in the editor preview. It may depend on the type of vehicle and buttoned/unbuttoned status, but when the scenario runs subordinates should have a visual link to the HQ in the jeep as long as they have LOS. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pandur Posted February 21, 2012 Author Share Posted February 21, 2012 you mean i should park the HQ sitting in a jeep somewhere where all 3 squads have ideal LOS to? lol that would work if i set up my position to watch the leader but they watch towards the enemy, this is only good in theory , i cant park the leader right into the space between the squads and the enemy. also the problem manifests in urban, try to imagine all squads watching towards the enemy and you try to find a place like you described, 90% of the time it will be in front of your position. horribly unflexible and suicidal. the more i work with the system to more stupid it seems to me, the radio jeeps need a fix or somefink! yes i tried in the battle, i made test scenario. i did not try unbutton button? how does one button up in a jeep anyways? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akd Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Nothing is broken here. If you want an HQ to maintain voice comms with subordinates out of LOS, you'll have to dismount it from the vehicle. Why are you so fixated on the Platoon HQ being in the jeep with a radio? Having platoon HQs out of contact with the Coy HQ in urban combat would be typical, and in reality, radios wouldn't hardly even function in that environment. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pandur Posted February 21, 2012 Author Share Posted February 21, 2012 Nothing is broken here. If you want an HQ to maintain voice comms with subordinates out of LOS, you'll have to dismount it from the vehicle. ugh...am i that unclear or are you trolling me? Why are you so fixated on the Platoon HQ being in the jeep with a radio? i am not! exactly the opposite! i want to be able to have a platoon HQ safely sitting in a house or bunker and right behind the house, as said in close proximity, lets say 2 action spots max range for it to work=16 meters, there is the radio jeep out of LOS of the enemy giving the platoon HQ abstracted means to communicate with CO HQ and so closeing the C2 chain. this is what i want to do. what i have to do it seems is pack the HQ into the radio jeep and place it somewhere in the open, without protection from indirect fire or anything else for it to work. i just want to get a working C2 system for the AI defender in a large city that is defended by one battalion+, each of 3 rifle Companys have 1 of 3 sectors, but i cant make the C2 link between the platoon HQ´s to the 3 Company HQs and the C2 falls apart in the whole city. left side doesnt know what the right side is spotting. now if you come and say this is unrealistic, this is a totally different approach, but the problem is then it is working in the game(when i have the HQ in the jeep), call it unrealistic or not BUT the implementation of this unrealistic system is the problem, it can not be used realisticly with a radio jeep providing radio to a HQ in close proximity from behind the position under cover. as said i dont want the HQ to sit in the jeep as this is stupid. maybe we find a green twig sooner or later. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pandur Posted February 21, 2012 Author Share Posted February 21, 2012 @akd, i meant no insult. but we where realy dancing some nice waltz there, round and round. i take a last chance, and post a last image i did not want to do this as this is actually quiet the spoiler to the scenario i work on, but i feel one needs to see what i try to set up for the AI in oder to understand why i want these radios so bad to be functional without sitting in the frigging jeep stuff on the picture is explained, units not marked can be ignored they are not deployed or not important for the example. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Pandur, if I am catching your drift- you want the Jeep radio to be in C2 to Coy HQ which requires you be in the jeep. Apparently as soon as you step into the jeep, you are in some type of hermetically sealed environment preventing you from talking to your team. Does that sum it up properly? So basically the jeep itself adds to the LOS issues for your teams to be in C2 to the platn hq? Have you tried turning off the engine? Washing the windows? Kidding. It does seem a bit odd, not sure what the abstraction here is that would have being in a jeep become an additional LOS burden. Can't see the pic so i do not know if that clarifies what the issue might be. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George MC Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 I've just done a quick test with this - based on your image above. In open ground you can have the platoon HQ mounted up in the jeep. You have C2 to CO HQ and the dismounted squads have LOS and are in command (visual i.e. the small eye icon). Dismount the platoon HQ and leave him next to the jeep you have C2 with CO HQ and now all the dismounted squads have better comms with the platoon HQ - eye and voice. The second image you posted has a broken link so not sure what else you are doing. Based on what you have outlined I suspect that the disruption in C2 could be due to poor LOS once guys get into buildings i..e it's blocked. It's also hard to shout to people inside the same house never mind people indoors another house 16m away. Whatever is happening it looks to be due to the built up nature of the terrain? If you can repost your last image that may help to show exactly what you are trying to do and I can have a bash at setting itself up myself. Cheery! George 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pandur Posted February 22, 2012 Author Share Posted February 22, 2012 Pandur, if I am catching your drift- you want the Jeep radio to be in C2 to Coy HQ which requires you be in the jeep. Apparently as soon as you step into the jeep, you are in some type of hermetically sealed environment preventing you from talking to your team. Does that sum it up properly? So basically the jeep itself adds to the LOS issues for your teams to be in C2 to the platn hq? EXACTLY! but guys, you cant see the picture in post 16 i posted, it shows everything!? i can see it, its a jpg. i will fix that picture in post 16 ASAP, please look at it what i try to do and how i could do it without the radio jeeps working as i imagined. @George MC Dismount the platoon HQ and leave him next to the jeep you have C2 with CO HQ and now all the dismounted squads have better comms with the platoon HQ how? when i tried this with average distance of 300 to 400m to Co HQ, in open ground the link i had by radio "in" the jeep severed as soon as the Plt HQ left the jeep. yes in open ground i can gain LOS to dismounts from within the jeep, "however" that is to me a very suicidal move would you not agree? sitting in the jeep in open ground is bound to get the Plt HQ shot in seconds. any LMG will spray it with fire, this does only work in lala land but not in battle, HQ needs to be dismounted, Radio Jeep in defilade behind, close proximity as said, thats how it could work in real life, thats what i would call realistic and imagined it to work that way just naturally. i did not think i am honestly and truly supposed to have the HQ sit in the jeep to get a working battalion C2. i am at a loss of words as this system is so unflexible it becomes unusable if you want to use it meaningful. anyways i fix the picture, lets talk when you guys can see the picture in post 16 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pandur Posted February 22, 2012 Author Share Posted February 22, 2012 i can no longer edit post 16, i post a new. klick for full size gif image hosting as back up here again direct link, one method must work i hope. klick and klick again for full size http://postimage.org/image/4rrj3vaup/ EDIT i hope you can see this now, iam about to register with imageshack. postimage.org is pissing me off. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akd Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Pandur, I saw your problem from the beginning. I've been trying to correct your misunderstanding of how things are supposed to work. There is a huge difference between saying "things are supposed to work this way and it is broken" and "I wish things worked a different way." As I've already said, the radio c2 system is working as it supposed to in the game and adhering to a logical system. In this particular circumstance, the system presents a challenge, but overall it is rather flexible and lenient. Your assumption that the purpose of the radio jeeps in the armoured infantry battalion is for platoon HQs to use remotely as mobile CPs when dismounted is wrong. I agree that it would be nice if it worked this way in this particular circumstance, but I can think of other situations in which adding this much flexibility to the use of radios in vehicles would not be very realistic. And while it would be nice as a feature if implemented with realistic restrictions, I still don't see how it would fundamentally alter this scenario in any way. Having continuous c2 links from platoon all the way to battalion is not going to make or break the scenario. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pandur Posted February 22, 2012 Author Share Posted February 22, 2012 As I've already said, the c2 system is working as it supposed to in the game and adhering to a logical system. this is logical to you? image hosting backup; http://s16.postimage.org/wbkivzl9x/Page_572_Philippines_radiojeep.jpg In this particular circumstance, the system presents a challenge, but overall it is rather flexible and lenient. i would like you to elaborate on the overall flexible system a bit more, i am interessted as far as i see it, it works as advertised, but only on paper or in the setup zone. in battle this system breaks apart horribly easy. i like the C2 system in CMx2, obviously some time was spent codeing it up but also obvious it was not thought through fully in my eyes. in the end its all about footprint, and the drive to utilize the C2 system to its full potential by makeing one battalion more then the sum of its parts. the C2 system can do that but NOT with the broken link between Plt HQ´s and Co HQ. right now you can get it to work as intended but the ingame effect you create is your battalion is packed so tight that its not working as battalion but as large arty target(roguhly 300x300m to 500x500m area, much smaller in urban) for the powerfull ingame arty. again this is logical? this is designed that way? why? I agree that it would be nice if it worked this way in this particular circumstance, but I can think of other situations in which adding this much flexibility to the use of radios in vehicles would not be very realistic. And while it would be nice as a feature, I still don't see how it would fundamentally alter this scenario in any way. please spare the realism arguments. this is a in depth discussion about the C2 system. the system is realistic as the radio jeep does provide what i want but only to mortars as far is saw it. if it would do that for Plt HQs also it would all be fixed. next is i decide whats realistic and what not in my scenario, i can choose to say its not realistic and simply delete the radio jeeps, or i can use the radio jeeps i have in the battalion. if you dont see how the units would benefit from the working battalion C2 you dont know how C2 works, i mean how should i explain this to you. maybe read what C2 bonuses are in manual. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akd Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 this is logical to you? image hosting backup; http://s16.postimage.org/wbkivzl9x/Page_572_Philippines_radiojeep.jpg Sorry, I just can't get that hung up on whether or not the HQ is inside or outside of the jeep. The outcome in the game is much the same except in the very specific situation of terrain that would allow voice communications but prevents LOS from subordinates to the platoon HQ (which would require the platoon to have a small footprint regardless because the voice comms radius is small), and where the platoon HQ doesn't have a radio (dismounted Armored Infantry Platoon). These circumstances are extremely limited. i would like you to elaborate on the overall flexible system a bit more, i am interessted as far as i see it, it works as advertised, but only on paper or in the setup zone. in battle this system breaks apart horribly easy. i like the C2 system in CMx2, obviously some time was spent codeing it up but also obvious it was not thought through fully in my eyes. Radios are provided liberally and work regardless of distance or terrain. All radios are considered interoperable. in the end its all about footprint, and the drive to utilize the C2 system to its full potential by makeing one battalion more then the sum of its parts. the C2 system can do that but NOT with the broken link between Plt HQ´s and Co HQ. ...in the very specific circumstance you have outlined, not in general. In the vast majority of circumstances it can do this without a broken link between Plt HQ and Co HQ, even when using a dismounted AIB. right now you can get it to work as intended but the ingame effect you create is your battalion is packed so tight that its not working as battalion but as large arty target(roguhly 300x300m to 500x500m area, much smaller in urban) for the powerfull ingame arty. again this is logical? this is designed that way? why? This is indeed a weakness of the Armored Infantry Battalion, which of course was never intended to hold large frontages operating dismounted. please spare the realism arguments. this is a in depth discussion about the C2 system. the system is realistic as the radio jeep does provide what i want but only to mortars as far is saw it. if it would do that for Plt HQs also it would all be fixed. next is i decide whats realistic and what not in my scenario, i can choose to say its not realistic and simply delete the radio jeeps, or i can use the radio jeeps i have in the battalion. if you dont see how the units would benefit from the working battalion C2 you dont know how C2 works, i mean how should i explain this to you. maybe read what C2 bonuses are in manual. You still don't understand the how the C2 system actually works in the game. A nearby vehicle does not provide the mortar C2. Look in the game, you will see that it still has no c2 if isolated from its HQ. The only thing it allows is for the mortar to receive fire missions in the absence of working c2 links up its chain of command. I strongly suggest you try your scenario with the armored infantry battalion with squads in contact with Platoon HQs but Platoon HQs out of contact with Coy HQ, then replace the AIB with a regular infantry battalion and report back on how differently it plays with good links all the way up and down the chain of command. I don't see how you can claim that this very specific, circumstantial limitation of the system is breaking this scenario without having done so. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pandur Posted February 22, 2012 Author Share Posted February 22, 2012 and where the platoon HQ doesn't have a radio (dismounted Armored Infantry Platoon). i knew it, we are getting somewhere in the end. now you tell me i could simply take anyother battalion that has radios for Plt HQ´s? why did noone suggest that? this is in the game? This is indeed a weakness of the Armored Infantry Battalion, which of course was never intended to hold large frontages operating dismounted. nice bit of info right there, but would you say the sector i have given the company is generally to large? i mean it did look reasonable to me. i am open to learn new stuff, now that i have you guys so far that you see the problem and at the same time where i am hung up on. circumstantial limitation of the system is breaking this scenario without having done so. dont get me wrong i never took the specific scenario for more then to outlie the problem, my backup plan would have been to give all troops "regular" expirience instead of "green" and feed the Co HQ and Battalion HQ into a bunker somewhere. however my drive to make full use of the C2 lies in the drive to make a "perfect" setup for the AI defender in my map, or as perfect as possible. i dont want to fudge it with soft factors, up expirience here and there to work around, i want green guys with good coms. however now i know how to get it, infantry battalion you said, i wanted to set that up somewhere else, but so i delete the armored one and take another inf battalion for the city and attach some vehicles there. if that works as i planed i am as happy as it gets suddenly all becomes so easy, i dont know why it took me so long to get to the root of this 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 suddenly all becomes so easy, i dont know why it took me so long to get to the root of this Well if you had just gotten back into the jeep we could have told you... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.