ClarkWGriswold

I'm the same way. I've only ever tried to force buddy aid to occur twice. Once was getting a Panzerschrek to loot the body of an ammo bearer, and once was to get a squad to pick up the MG42 after the gunner had died. Other than that, I don't bother. Buddy aid is cool to see, and 1:1 kills/deaths are more compelling than CMx1, but there's no benefit or reward in the game to giving aid. Even if there were it would have to be substantial for me to risk the mission to give medical attention to fallen men.

I'm curious as to the reason why commands would have to be added? We already have four movement speeds available (Fast, Quick, Normal, Slow). Wouldn't it be possible to change the behavior for one or more while leaving it for the others? For instance, adjust the accuracy of firing on the move so that tanks can't hit so reliably and perhaps don't attempt shots as often if the target is far away. Leave Fast and Quick so that tanks fire on the move, but change Normal and Slow so that tanks stop, fire, then continue on their way. I'm not sure how feasible this is, but it would seem to be a good solution if it could be implemented.

Never seen what's described here, but I've seen plenty of troops run hundreds of meters away from the front lines and stay panicked for many turns. Sometimes bailed tank crews, sometimes infantry that have taken a beating and heavy casualties. Regardless of whether the exclamation point shows, the effect seems to be much the same. Very seldom are these troops ever usable again, and certainly not for much more than spotting and some support fire.

I think pretty much everyone would like to have such a feature. It would make re-watching a battle so much easier and more fun, and would make AARs/VAARs a lot simpler to put together. Alas, I doubt we'll ever see such a feature. :-(

I'm not sure that the bolded portion is true. AKD and I have both seen men inside a building become suppressed from friendly fire. We know that rounds whizzing by the mens' heads doesn't suppress, so this has to either be from the rounds impacting the wall outside or rounds going through the windows and impacting inside the room. The latter seems unlikely, though possible. Edit: I ran a little test to confirm. I put a squad of men on the 2nd floor of a brick building and had two squads and an MG with Target Light orders at the 2nd floor only. I checked, and no rounds were impacting the ground. I saw few if any hitting the first floor. Still, the men in the building were pinned and cowering in short order. You're able to see little puffs when bullets go through the windows and hit the wall behind the targeted squad. I don't think there were nearly enough of those to pin a whole squad so quickly, so the rounds impacting the outside wall are the only explanation I can think of.

I think this is the real thing to take away from these tests. I've seen the suppression effects a lot during gameplay, but generally only when assaulting a building and using overwatch squads to suppress the enemy. As soon as my guys get close to the building the impacts/ricochets suppress them and they turn around, cower, disobey orders, etc. There seem to be a few workarounds to this problem: 1) Have your overwatch squads stop firing before you assault the building. Unfortunately, this is very difficult in WeGo play because you cannot time firing orders like you can for movement orders. 2) Assault from a direction that will not expose troops to splash effect. Of course, this is nearly impossible due to the nature of most buildings in CMBN. Most have doors on only one side or on opposing sides. There's very little chance you can suppress from one side and assault from the opposite side. 3) Move your men as quickly as possible through the splash zone, and use high quality, high morale, in-C2 troops that are less likely to suppress, pin, or panic before you can call off your overwatch squads' target orders. Probably the most effective lesson from this thread is to only use Target Light for suppression fire if you're going to have friendly troops anywhere nearby. Light weapons fire won't cause friendly casualties, but .50 cal, grenades, rifle grenades, bazooka rounds, etc. WILL cause friendly casualties, and all of these may be used with the Target command, but will not fire with Target Light.

Different effects due to different building materials would make sense, if the suppression is being caused by ricochets. Thick stone walls will ricochet more rounds than a fence or a thin walled building. There are actually at least three of us in this thread that all see the same thing: suppression from friendly small arms fire (.30 cal and smaller). So, it's not just AKD who's saying this. I believe he said he saw the behavior on a beta version, but that he also tested with v1.00 to make sure behavior was the same. What he saw in v1.00 was consistent with what everyone else (except you, it seems) is seeing. I'm not sure what would have to be done to convince you, but we've got multiple people running multiple different tests and all seeing the same results: suppression from friendly small arms fire.

Blackcat - This is really easy to reproduce. Load up the Demo and play the "Road to Berlin" scenario. You'll get two Shermans, an MG, several squads of riflemen, etc. Put one or two squads up against the building on the right side of the courtyard. Take the MG and whatever is left and put them behind the low wall right next to the road. Order a Target Light on the house or the spot in front of the house. The guys will be completely pinned in less than a minute. I tried it multiple times and it happened every single time. Here's a screenshot. This is ONE rifle squad with a Target Light command on the building behind the highlighted squad. Note that the suppression meter is almost full, and nearly every single soldier in the squad is cowering. Using two squads, an MG, or a squad and an MG results in very quick suppression. Usually less than a minute.

The problem is, I've not found the Hide command to be especially good at hiding anything. In all of the games that I've played, when I've used the Hide command my units invariably take shots at the enemy and give away their position. However, if I use a small cover arc my units do not shoot outside of that arc and stay hidden. In a PBEM game I'm currently playing I have an HQ unit inside a building with a cover arc. He's been within 100m of a LOT of enemy units for at least a dozen turns. He has not been spotted and has not engaged the enemy (other than being a mortar spotter). Another unit that was placed into a building and told to hide is wiped out now, because they decided to take some shots at a German halftrack and ended up on the wrong end of a 75mm gun. The last game I played I moved four squads up to some bocage and told them to hide. They continually popped off shots here and there as they spotted enemies. Once I slapped short covered arcs on them, all the firing stopped. Hide would be really useful if the units would ACTUALLY HIDE!

Nope. I'm not confused. I assure you, I can read. Actually, it looks like two guys are moving (#2 and #4), but men #1 and #3 are both listed as "Hiding". Men only hide when given the Hide command. Otherwise they show as Cowering, Spotting, etc. I'm not sure if men can start/stop an order one at a time or if everyone has to do it at once, but the text shows plain as day that at least two guys are still hiding (though it's hard to read, even in 720p). At 25:27 the last unit stops hiding. That's 14 seconds into the video, just like I said. Prior to this there is at least one or two men listed as Hiding. Not to mention that the enemy units are spotted a mere 5 seconds into the video, yet we still have at least one guy listed as Hiding for almost another 10 seconds. So, you may be right that the unit starts engaging the enemy earlier than 14 seconds, but the entire unit definitely is not engaging before that. I would chalk up the shots they're taking to the fact that Hiding units don't hide much at all, but of course neither of us knows what's going on behind the scenes in the code.

I'm seeing the same thing. It doesn't happen in 100% of situations, but it definitely happens often. .30 cal and smaller rounds cause suppression. .50 cal and larger cause casualties. I haven't yet tested grenades, rifle grenades, etc., but I'm guessing they'll cause casualties too.

I don't think there are different rules at play for the Germans. See my post above (#19). I can get put some serious hurt on my American GIs by area firing using a Target Light at their position. I was able to kill or injure every single member of a squad in less than a minute using nothing but a single Sherman and Target Light. Small arms (smaller than .50 cal) do not seem to cause injuries or fatalities, but they definitely cause suppression. I ran the same testing using one rifle squad, two rifle squads, and a single HMG squad (M1919 .30 cal). In all of those cases I could easily suppress the squad in the target area in a short period of time. Most of the time the unit receiving fire would be Pinned in short order. No casualties taken, but serious suppression and morale hits, for certain.

I was unable to get any kills using a Sherman's .50 cal firing upon my own men. Not even a kill from a ricochet (I tested this with guys lined up against a wall, being fired at from behind, so they were completely exposed to direct fire and ricochets). Suppression and plenty of cowering, yes. Actual kills from direct fire or richchets, no. Edit: I take that back! I tried this again and killed or injured my entire squad in under a minute! Tried it three times with three different squads and all three took HEAVY casualties very quickly. Sherman was using target light and firing with the pintle .50, the bow gun, and the turret MG. Edit2: This is really easy to test. Load up "Road to Berlin" in the demo, move the three squads you're given over to the wall of the house on the right, turn your Sherman 90 degrees right and order Target Light where your guys are standing. They'll be mowed down in no time.

I think you're right. I just tested it and using Target Light causes no casualties and no suppression. But I tried using Target Light with a Sherman and men in the fire area were very suppressed and cowering like crazy (MG fire only, no HE). I know for certain that one of the times I've seen this type of behavior I was using a Sherman's .50 cal to suppress the enemy. The other times, perhaps I was using an MG unit in addition to rifle teams. I can't recall for sure, but my testing shows that, at the very least, a .50 cal will cause suppression. Whether .30 cal, rifle grenades, bazooka rounds, etc. do as well, I do not know and don't have time to test right now.

That's odd. I specifically remember an instance playing the demo training mission where my guys took casualties and turn and ran, even though the only people that seemed to be firing were my own men. It was the "Road to Berlin" demo scenario. I had one squad of men behind the wall near the farmhouse, and two squads of men in the barn. I ordered the men behind the wall and one of the barn squads to area target the farmhouse itself, and ordered the second barn squad to wait 15 seconds, then Quick into the farmhouse. When the turn started the two teams began firing and the third team assaulted the house. Only one or two even made it into the house. The rest were killed or routed before they got there. I don't recall there being any enemy fire, and any enemies in the house would have surely been suppressed by 20+ Americans firing rifles and Thompsons into the place. Germany units near the crossroads on the far side of the map don't have LOS to the front of the barn. If those troops weren't killed by friendly fire, I don't know what else could have done it. I'll have to try that scenario again and see what happens.

Why use Hide and Covered Arc at the same time? If you have a covered arc set, the unit shouldn't fire outside that arc anyway (except under extreme threat). If you use the Hide command you just get reduced spotting, and it still doesn't stop your men from firing anyway (as evidenced by this video and multiple people's personal experience). So what's the advantage? Far easier and less risky to just use a covered arc and forget about the Hide command. At least that way you know your men will spot and fight back when they need to.

The German squad stops hiding at 25:26 (14 seconds into the video). Until that time the team spend most of their time either Hiding or Spotting. A couple guys pop up now and again to fire off a shot (9 seconds into the video, 12 seconds in), but they immediately go back to Hiding. Once they stop hiding (14 seconds into the video) there is almost always at least one man Cowering due to suppression (the meter is half full). 20 seconds into the video one of the four men is hit. At 23 seconds into the video the suppression meter is completely full, with only three men left alive to fight. So, for the first 14 seconds of the video the guys are spending all of their time hiding (they do NOT unhide when an enemy enters their arc of fire, but they do take pot shots). The next 10 seconds they're able to fire back, but since there's only four of them they don't do any damage and are quickly suppressed. From 23 seconds onward they are completely suppressed, cowering in their foxholes. At that point the Americans are able to walk right up to their foxholes, uncontested. The results don't seem very surprising to me. However, if a person expected that units would stop hiding when someone entered their covered arc, then it probably would be surprising. Hopefully it's clear now that Hide+Cover Arc does not work that way.

You're lucky. I've not only noticed heavy suppression, but actual friendly fire. While playing the demo scenario I had two squads laying down suppressive fire on the rear building (one squad by the wall, one in the barn). I had a third squad Quick towards the building to kill anyone left inside. The two suppressing units didn't stop firing! Their shots were ricocheting into the assaulting squad as they were going into the building, and they kept firing at the house even after friendlies had entered. In CMx1 units would stop firing when friendlies entered the targeted area, but that doesn't seem to be the case in CMx2.

I disagree with your disagreement. The hide order is virtually useless. For ambushing or scouting, it's definitely worthless. Troops that are ordered to hide, don't. They still shoot when they see an opportunity. Not enough to actually kill anyone, but enough to give away their position and make themselves a target. If enemy units attack, hiding soldiers don't fight back until it's too late, and don't fight back as effectively as if they were not hiding. Cover arcs, on the other hand, are very effective. In all but extreme cases, soldiers given a cover arc order will not fire outside the cover arc. So, they don't give away their positions. Similarly, they're not keeping their heads down, so they still spot with 100% effectiveness. The only time I've found Hide to be useful at all is when I've got guys who are taking fire and have nowhere to go (for instance, inside a house, taking fire from a superior force). In these cases I can Hide them and try to preserve them until I can use another element to take out whoever is firing at them. But I know full well that if the enemy rushes their position, they are toast. If you want to prepare an ambush, scout without giving away your position, etc., you definitely do not want to use the Hide command.

I think that's the problem. Troops ordered to hide can spot and will occasionally shoot, but not enough to be effective (In my experience hiding troops shoot just enough to give away their location and become bullet magnets). I'd bet that if you had a covered arc and NO hide order, your men would have mowed down the attackers. Instead, they laid down and covered their heads until the guys were right on top of them, and by then it was too late. Edit: Basically, the hide order is useless in CMBN. Worse than useless; Harmful.

Great movie. Must have taken a lot of time. Is it just me, or does it sound like all the Germans are using cork guns?

The hotkeys file lists a "NOT USED" hotkey. That's the spot where Clear Target is supposed to be. If you map a hotkey there, Clear Target will show up as using that hotkey. Unfortunately, it doesn't actually work. I was able to get it to work in the CMSF demo, as I recall, but no luck at all in CMBN.

Having "Cautious" be a green bar doesn't make sense to me. It's basically the first level of warning. Wouldn't you want it to be yellow or something, then go to multiple red bars as you reach "Panic"?

My bad. That is the post I was thinking of, but I was almost certain it was Steve who said it. Apologies for the confusion.

We realize it was intended and designed this way. That doesn't mean it isn't a problem, and it doesn't make it the correct decision. ANYTHING can be changed if enough people demand it. I've yet to hear a single person (other than Steve) say that they think this solution is a good one, so I think BFC would be wise to at least consider changing the behavior. Treat dead vehicles as though they block LOS, whether they are smoking or not. No more shooting through dead vehicles, and it also solves the issue of the TacAI shooting at live vehicles and only hitting dead ones that are in the way. There may be some problems that arise from this solution, but in my opinion those problems would likely be less controversial and damaging to gameplay than the way it currently works.