Broadsword56

If we just had Mark III and Kv tanks and short-barrel StuGs, we could be playing Stalingrad right now with these mods and RT, and not need to wait the years more until BFC works its way back to '42-'43.

The game looks like scenes from "Enemy at the Gates." Wow. To think that one might eventually have this level of visual fidelity in a real wargame as good as CM is something to look forward to.

See my thread on P2 of this maps and mods forum. The IP shows the Soviet Campaign master maps laid out in place over Google Earth. Lake Orekhi is that large vertical lake on Master Map 4 (second map from the left. http://www.battlefront.com/community/showpost.php?p=1516471&postcount=1 I don't know the location of the town you mentioned.

This is sick, I know, but... Solve the hole in the head problem by just coloring it red/pink/gray. You only see it when the helment gets shot off, so it would just look like a nasty head wound instead of a black hole. (This is from the player who still feels queasy that I first saw hit decals and thought, "Hmm, those probably could work on soldiers, too.")

For those who bought the games/modules individually, what we really need is a single, definitive, *official* sticky thread that gives a step by step "for dummies" install order, running from the base game through whatever the latest version might be. And it needs to be kept up to date. Because if I ever have to reinstall CMBN or CMFI from the beginning, the real frustration is trying to be sure I've got every file and install each one in the proper order. The other frustration is the time it takes to do all that, but I can accept that as long as there's a good guide that walks me through it so I don't end up having to do the process several times to get it right. (Maybe there already is one and I just don't know where it is. If so, please forgive me.)

One way you can simulate a battle where a bridge could blow during play if not first seized intact is with a touch objective. Draw it in a thin touch objective line, in arcs measuring, say, 500m from either side of the bridge. Set the touch objective to "known to" only the defending player. Now you've simulated a primed bridge, where the defenders have orders not to blow it until it's in imminent danger of capture. When any attacking units touch the danger line, the game will give the defending player a message alert. Then then the game can be paused while some other mechanism (say, a die roll) is used to determine if the bridge is blown. If the bridge blows, the battle ends there. If the demolition attempt fails and bridge doesn't blow, the the wires have been cut and it's "disarmed." Battle continues and the attacker still has the chance to fight for and capture it. I've adapted the Where Eagles Dare boardgame rule, for example, to have demolition succeed on a D10 roll of 6 or less if any unsuppressed defending unit has LOS and LOF (working weapon, has ammo) to any AS within either of the danger zone areas, or 5 or less if the defending side fails to meet this condition. My Son map for CMBN-MG (which I posted in the Repository) was designed to be played this way. What's cool about the "known only" to defender setting for the touch line is that the attacking player must tread carefully the closer he gets to the demolition radius. He can use the LOS tool to estimate how close he is, of course, but he doesn't know exactly where that thin line is. So he can't brazenly walk right up to it, and could even trip it prematurely or unintentionally.

Agreed. And its genius strikes me as particularly French, in the same tradition of systematizing and rationalizing that gave us the metric system, Escoffier's hierarchy of sauces in la grande cuisine, the denomination of origin system for wines, the Napoleonic Code, etc.

Yes, but I suspect it's not only the tendency of CM players to play with smaller maps/engagement ranges than historically, but also to deploy AT guns poorly -- not on a front line, but in the rear and in defilade, and deployed in a keyhole position to hit armor from the flank or rear. Re: Simulating Soviet command -- it can be done but you just have to agree with your opponent on whatever limitations or house rules might apply. For example, in my current battle the Soviet artillery are limited to direct fire artillery shots, or indirect fire missions only on the TRPs -- not spontaneous fire missions called in by spotters -- to simulate the lack of radios and different procedures (HQ-driven fire plans, etc.)

And even if sewer movement ever did make it into a future CM, it should be constrained so that players can't move just anywhere they want to. After all, sewer lines large enough for troops to move through have specific routes and entrances/exits, just as roads do. So they'd tend to run under the middle of streets, have manhole covers at intervals, and perhaps man-sized branches into major buildings like factories and train stations. So here's how I would love to see it implemented: The scenario editor gets a set of sewer line placement buttons just like roads, along with an entrance/exit point button that's placeable in the 2D screen. Those points get represented in-game by a manhole cover. The scenario editor should also allow the designer to set the level of intel about the sewer system for one side or the other -- important because the advantage of the sewers increases greatly for the side that knows them the best. Showing the known sewer routes could be viewable with an ALT+ toggle. In-game, all anyone sees are the manhole covers. And since we also have manhole covers as flavor objects, it won't be possible to know which ones are real entry/exit points and which ones aren't unless you have the intel about the system (via the view toggle), happen to spot enemy units entering/exiting it, or test it by trying to send someone down there. A player could enter/exit infantry units from manholes with the green arrow icon (like mounting a vehicle). The unit would then do a descending/emerging animation and only its icon would be visible to the owning player. It could be moved just like other units, but at a very slow rate of movement and with heavy fatigue penalties. And once in the sewers, the unit can't exit except at the preset entrance/exit points. Units that encounter enemy while underground in the sewer system would have an abstracted close combat, with severe morale effects that would usually leave both sides very easily shaken. So, bottom line -- sewers would be great for covert infiltration, flanking, rear area harassment, etc., but not for large-scale troop movements or actual combat underground. And, having said all that, how useful would the sewers really be and how often would players really use them? And how much BFC coding and animation time do you think all that would represent? I'll bet that puts it into the category of ("cool to have but not cost-effective so we'll never do it") category. I'd much rather see flares and illumination implemented for nighttime, and spreadable fire, before underground/sewer movement. Those two things would have much wider application to all the other CM titles, too.

An aerial of the map showing the terrain and German objectives: You can see there's some good clear and dry ground along the attack axis that the German armor can use to support the attack. A closeup of the VLs (The Soviets have pretty much the same ones, only theirs are worth fewer points each because they also gain enemy unit destruction points):

@mjkerner: Thank you, but kipanderson has risen to the challenge and the battle is now under way. I'll post here with updates when interesting things happen, or maybe a summary AAR and some screenies. Also, if this HTH scenario proves to be a keeper, I'll release it for general use. Someone might even want to code some AI on it. It's being fought on a section of Master Map 1 from the RT Soviet Campaign. And there are no buildings in this particular area, so the building bug is not a factor either. All I really had to do to set this battle up was cut down the master map and make the OOB. Then I customized the map with cratering and war damage in the areas where shelling and combat have happened in my boardgame campaign thus far. I'll be curious to see how all those Nashorns perform when combined with sturm grenadiers and flamethrower-equipped sturmpioneers. The Soviets do have a few SU-76s lurking about to make it interesting. And the Germans have to guard against excessive friendly armor casualties because those will put unit VPs on the board for the Soviets. The battle time of 50 minutes should be plenty long enough for KG Grunling to sweep in for a hasty counterattack. But they need to go for the jugular and consolidate quickly, because the Soviets will be trying to push considerable follow-on forces up the forest roads. This attack wouldn't be possible if it weren't for the change in weather (clear -->overcast) due to a random event chit draw in the op layer, which silenced the Red air force for the time being. Otherwise, a dozen or more Nashorns and motorized pioneers moving in daylight along the single-track RR would have been sitting ducks.

You could do it by using the boardgame (or a different boardgame) to manage higher-level units and functions (including the sewer movement). Then you don't need to use sewer movement in CMRT, just start battles at the places and times the troops emerge from the sewer and contact the enemy, etc.

What I really want to see is Umlaut's realistic ruins mod applied to this map, when it's ready.

There was an ASL historical campaign module called "Onslaught to Orsha" that I've read about on Boardgamegeek that seems to have been very well regarded. I'm sure it could inspire a lot of RT scenarios.

Read some WWII histories and you'll find these things happened all the time. Units would mistake enemy vehicles for friendlies in the night, and sometimes even fall into formation with them! I'm not saying that CM explicitly models this misidentification. But I *am* saying that the effect in either case is exactly the same -- a failure to engage a close enemy that "should" have been shot at. So lighten up and loosen up and remember this is messy and chaotic *war,* not a parade ground exercise or matter of charts and penetration tables. The more you approach CM in that spirit the more you'll like it. Embrace the suck.

By Turn 5 (1300-1500 hrs) the first Soviet breach in the German line appears. A lone company of the 33rd Guards Rifle Regiment opens the way. It's immediately suppressed by German artillery. An immediate German counterattack is expected at any moment. Just behind the lead Guards company, a sapper company blows a roadblock and opens the forest trail for reinforcements. Then the sappers star moving up to rescue the infantry. But the Germans move swiftly to seize this fleeting opportunity for a counterattack to isolate the lead Soviet units and pinch them off before the massive force of armor and infantry behind them arrives... This is the setup for the HTH battle, "Out on a Limb." The Germans will be following these orders: Date: 23 June, 1944 Time: 1410 hrs Weather: Overcast, wind W, gentle ENEMY: Advanced elements of 11 and 1 Guards motorized rifle divisions, altogether in approximately regimental strength. Some armor (several SU-76 vehicles) is among the force. The lead unit, a company of 33 Guards Rifle Regiment, occupies a 500m breach in our fortified line at OBJ WOTAN. It is under bombardment and appears weakened and suppressed. It was isolated until, within the past hour, an enemy sapper company blew a path through a roadblock near OBJ FRICKA and is attempting to reinforce OBJ WOTAN. OVERVIEW: Approximately 1 km E and SE of OBJ WOTAN, the enemy has outflanked our first defensive line and is infliltrating through the peat bogs (offmap) toward our right rear. If OBJ WOTAN remains in enemy hands, their central and flanking attack forces will link up, widening the salient and cutting off a force of the 195 Sturm Regiment that is still defending its fortifications 1 Km NE of OBJ WOTAN. We have a fleeting opportunity to quickly pinch off the tip of the Soviet spearhead before follow-on forces and armor arrive, and while the overcast skies keep Soviet aircraft grounded. MISSION: Immediate counterattack on OBJ WOTAN to seize it by 1500 hrs. Consolidate on the objective and defend in place if sufficient time remains. ORDERS TO SUBORDINATE ELEMENTS: Offmap artillery -- Maintain continuous bombardment on OBJ WOTAN and OBJ FRICKA. 1/PzJgr 256 (StuG company attached to the 195th) – Withdraw to OBJ DONNER and defend in place. 2/1/481 Grenadier Regiment, 256th Infantry Division – Advance on AXIS STAR and deploy vicinity on POINT 4507 with LOS to OBJ FRICKA. Base of fire on OBJ FRICKA to pin and isolate any forces there from reinforcing OBJ WOTAN. KG Grunling – comprises 3/1/195 Sturm Regiment, Sturmpioneer Company 195 (flamethrower equipped), and 1/PzJgr Battalion 78 (Nashorns). Assemble at POINT 4408, then attack on AXIS KORMORAN to assault and occupy OBJ WOTAN. If time remains, consolidate on the objective as follows: 3/1/195 defends in place and links up with adjacent forces. 1/PzJgr Bn 78 and Sturmpioneers withdraw to mobile reserve at OBJ DONNER. COMMUNICATIONS: Rally point for KG Grunling: OBJ DONNER. 3/1/195 Sturm is dismounted and en route to the assembly point along the S leg of the single-track railway line. Sturmpioneer company is mounted and en route to the assembly point via the N leg of the railway. 1/PzJgr Battalion 78 is offmap and about 5 minutes behind them, so they should arrive as reinforcements soon. The companies of 195 Sturm Regiment occupying fortified positions in the SE corner of the map are under orders to defend in place. However, their commander’s resolve is questionable and it’s possible those units may attempt to withdraw before they are cut off. If so, you might see the elements of the 4th (Heavy) company appear at some point on the forest trail where it meets the S mapedge. VICTORY CONDITIONS: VP points pool is 1,000 for both sides. For the German side, all of the VPs are for territory (8 different objectives of increasing point value, indicated on the RT map ingame). For the Soviet side, 700 VPs are for territory and 300 are for destroying certain German units (more points for armor, less for pioneers, and even less for grenadiers). HOUSE RULES: 1. At deployment, German player must place an opening artillery barrage on OBJ WOTAN and maintain it under barrage as long as possible. 2. At deployment, one German unit is suppressed. The Pak 75 battery (2/AT Bn/195 Sturm Regiment ) begins suppressed. It must be set to HIDE and have a 10m cover arc for the first 2 minutes of the battle. 3. Soviet indirect artillery may only target TRPs, and the TRPs must be left in their preset locations on the map. 4. At deployment, Soviet artillery must be set to bombard the TRPs near the three “SOVIET OPENING BARRAGE” landmarks. The Soviet player must maintain these three barrages as long as possible in the battle. Any other artillery that isn’t hitting those designated areas may be used on other TRPs anytime, at the player’s choice. 5. At deployment, two Soviet units are suppressed. They are: 1/2/33rd Guards Rifle Regiment, and 1/1/33rd Guards Rifle Regiment. They must be set to HIDE and have a 10m cover arc for the first 2 minutes of the battle.

Especially important by the time CM gets to the Bulge era -- the US troops had so much time on that static front before the offensive that they almost always had overhead cover on their foxholes, at least in their starting positions.

@ Blazing 88's: Feel free to tinker with it and make it into something enjoyable to play -- you might want to wait to take advantages of any new features of the CMFI upgrade, though, which I understand is coming soon. And it would be nice if you do play it, to share any AAR or sitreps and screenshots here on this thread so we can all be entertained. :-)

Excellent news. Thanks for the fast reply. Add me to the list of those eagerly anticipating the patch!

Unless I'm missing something, as of yet there seems to be no Soviet DShK heavy machinegun in the game. It surprises me because it's so widely used today in the Middle East that I'd imagine BFC has it already in the modern games. The Guards divisions in Bagration had antiaircraft machinegun companies that (at full strength) had 48 personnel, 9 DShK weapons, and 9 trucks. This MG had a slow rate of fire but really packed a punch and would make huge difference on the ground as a heavy infantry support weapon. It had a wheeled carriage that let it be used in a ground role, and when mounted on the trucks it would be a nasty AA weapon against low-flying Stukas. Please tell me a future RT version will have the Dushka, and that it will be dismountable if it comes mounted on AA MG Company trucks. In the meantime, what existing weapon would be the best workaround substitute for an AA MG Company in a ground role?

Sorry, Blazing 88's, but I never did release this, despite a lot of work on it by me and Snake Eye. Several reasons: 1. I discovered only after I made the map that CMx2 just doesn't simulate boulders and large rock-covered hills very well. The swirling fight in and around those boulders on Hill 531 at close quarters is what made this battle interesting to me. Otherwise, it's just a dull frontal assault across open ground. 2. Snake Eye -- God bless him -- took a keen interest in this scenario. He not only wrote some German AI plans for it, but posted real world pix and info that you see earlier on this thread. He also modified the hill terrain a bit to rough up the elevations and improved the German barbed wire defenses. I never had time to properly playtest the scenario vs. the AI, and I've since lost interest in standalone scenarios vs. AI. 3. Then CMFI got upgraded to the new and more realistic machinegun lethality. The German forces in this battle had a huge number of LMGs and HMGs. So, that plus open terrain, plus frontal assault, plus insufficient modeling of cover from rocks and boulders would probably mean a US bloodbath and a boring battle. 4. I'd considered releasing the scenario as-is, just to make it available to the community in case someone wanted to develop it further into something fun and challenging. But I don't like to put out WIPs that aren't tested or ready to play -- because invariably, some people don't bother to read the readme and disclaimers, and then complain that "this thing sux" or lament the time they wasted trying to play it. I looked around my files for it just now, but I don't even have the scenario anymore. Snake Eye might, if you want to ask him. Otherwise, I guess it was just a noble experiment that failed to deliver on its early promise.

Situation at the end of Turn 4 (now 1300hrs) on Day 1 (23 June, 1944): Notes on the latest action: A: Under cover of a barrage, a perfectly executed ferry crossing by the Soviet 27th Guards Motorized Rifle Regiment/11th Guards Rifle Division. The Soviets sent one company to fix a German company in its fortified position, while the rest of the regiment crosses further north to outflank it on the left. The German company frantically tried to make contact with three supporting artillery batteries to the rear, but failed each time (the barrage having cut the phone wires, I imagine). B: A lone German shrek platoon, decimated and under constant fire and artillery barrage in the woods, continues to frustrate Soviet attempts to force a breach and clear the main road in the center. The shrek platoon's valor was particularly noteworthy because its armor support (a depleted StuG company) withdrew about 500m to the SE. A fresh Soviet SMG company managed to suppress the Germans but became suppressed itself by the German minefield. Some supporting SU-76s are suppressed by the mines now, too. C: Two companies of 1/195 Sturm Regiment/78th Sturm Division, remain cut off in their fortified positions. Their resistance channels the enemy attack and makes the attackers' job even harder in this close terrain. D: Using sapper ferry boats and ad hoc rafts, fresh Soviet forces arrive on the S bank of the stream and start to turn the right flank of the first German fortified line. Summary: The eggshell of the thin German defense shows new cracks, but continues to hold for now. The new threats on the German flanks aren't as dire as they might seem, because of the marshy terrain in those areas. But they give the Germans more problems to think about and spend resources reacting to. Much depends on the weather: It has turned overcast, preventing Soviet airstrikes that could otherwise help clear some of these stubborn bottlenecks. The Soviets have also used up their allotment of two army/corps/divisional artillery Fire Plans for the day. So the attacking Soviet units will have only their regimental heavy mortars and howitzers available. As a result, the grinding battle of attrition is likely to continue through the afternoon.

That's very realistic -- In Market Garden, for example, the Allied air support roamed the corridor and hunted for ground targets on its own. Near Son Bridge, for example, the 101st Abn benefited from the timely arrival of aircraft who spotted and destroyed some German tanks. The FOs on the ground didn't call this in on spotted targets -- the aircraft were roaming around the LZs to clear out any threats they saw , especially AT guns and armor. I wanted to replicate this in a HTH Son scenario I made and played using CMBN Market-Garden last fall. I gave the 101st an air asset as a reinforcement, with an arrival so randomized that it might or might not show up at some point in the battle. During the fight, some German Mark IIIs were making life miserable for the paratroops. They could loiter with impunity in the open around Hell's Highway and the periphery of Son town, peppering the infantry from standoff range as the troopers tried to make their way to the bridge. Then, late in the battle, the Allied aircraft appeared. IRL the planes would have been looking for German tanks and been able to quickly deal with any armor out in the open. But, due to the way the game worked at the time, I had to have an FO with eyes on the tanks and able to call in targets to the planes. My FO team was already dead. So the planes were useless. It just would have been much better and more realistic if the planes had been able to hunt on their own (for better or worse, since there's no guarantee they would have spotted the armor or managed to kill it if they did). If I'd protected the FO as I should have, then he wouldn't have been in a position to spot for the planes. One point when the Allies really did use imbedded tactical air controllers a lot, and quite effectively, was in the late summer '44 Cobra breakout and dash across France. I've read that the ground attack planes flew cover right along with the advancing ground columns and were in close communication with them. But in Market-Garden, IIRC, it was only at battalion HQ and above that the Americans had the right radios and personnel to communicate with the Air Corps. So that's above the scope of many CM scale battles, and even the battalion HQ might not necessarily have be located close enough to the action to have the real-time intel to call in tac air strikes in response to fast-changing circumstances up front. The v2 game is giving players way too much pinpoint power and instant control of this aspect, IMHO. I'd like it if the upgraded CMBN gave the player setting up a scenario or battle the option of whether to allow user-controlled air support or air support that's not subject to user control once the battle starts. But if it has to be one or the other, I'd vote for no user control.

What would (or should) a Soviet human wave attack be in CMx3 that isn't already doable by the player with a mass amount of simultaneous quick orders? What would ypu want too see and how would it be implemented?

OK, fair enough. Sorry if I misunderstood.