PFMM

I think a reviewer has to be aware of the readers' expectations. In that regard, I think his comments were fair enough. As a product, I think it's okay, but the intention inherent in it always seems greater than the realisation on show.

Well I can see a partial solution to this. Each unit only reports what it can see, it's up to the player to form the big picture. The problem with this is it leaves the computer even more moronic than usual, but I'm sure most of you want to play online by now.

You're quick Finn I'll give you that. Since Theater of War doesn't have replay function (Oh! The Humanity!) it's hard to test. However, I agree that the visibility effects seem at little wobbly. I'd also note that there seems to be some fixes stated for it in the next patch.

Addendum, also note that not having control can also be aprt of the plan. It often works in politics and is just as effective in Combat Mission.

A better course of action might be to address Misereor's claim that taking control is necessary to victory. It is not. What one is trying to do is effect a plan, taking control means reaching out to one's opponent and saying this is what I'm doing and this is what will happen, and that is just what the enemy wants to hear. In effecting a plan you are going to achieve one's aim regardless of wether control is maintained or not, because, as a contigency of any plan there is the consideration of it still working when all hell is breaking loose. You just let it slide. So, take control and tell all or maintain a plan and keep the enemy in the dark. Your choice.

In Combat Mission it's known as Borg spotting, ie if one can see it all can see it, and is often exploited. It seems that Theater of War has toned it down a bit, but not eliminated it completely.

So it seems the command STORM in the scripts doesn't mean what I think it does? Oh well, that's always the problem with reverse engineering.

I'm playing the demo too. What I meant with the computer remark is that it cheats. The script tells it that there are enemy present and so it fires. And with infantry, let them get close, a hundred meters or less, if possible. Lastly, the full game (which I've played some courtesy of a friend) has the most awfull rubbish for scenarios imaginable. Custom scenarios online is the way to go, where it shines.

Hide in this game is hold fire and in open country prone. Using prone in trenches is a waste as they can't fire prone, use dash(kneeling) instead. Spread your men out more, no more than the number of firing positions of men per trench. Only release the hold fire command when the enemy is within range as they will expose themselves even more to fire. Computer controlled tanks have in their scripts the ability to fire on areas containing the enemy regardless of wether they can see them or not. Which is what any live player would do anyway. Barring bad luck versus the artillery, I've only lost men when the enemy was right on top of me. And my record is about thirty infantry and two tanks with one squad. Good luck and hope it helps.

Yes, very much so. Unfortunately to gain these positions you need to eyeball the postion (press enter by default) for each unit, and additionally tell them to target the top when their targets come into sight, as that is often all they can initially see. It is worth the effort in most cases, and you should see enemy shots tending to impact the ridge in front more often. PS and important, remember to take gun depression limits into account.

Mannheim Tanker, it might be a fair point if we actually had villages, woods and proper visibility concerns for tanks in Theater of War. We don't. Half a dozen buildings all within line of sight of each other would provide no cover to infantry even in Combat Mission, especially versus a dozen tanks. The woods in Theater of War are little more than scattered woods in Combat Mission. And lastly, if one does tests, in Theater of War a moving tank spots just as well as a stationary one. Not so in Combat Mission. I would advise you play Combat Mission's 'Taking the Train' scenario and you will see a game where infantry matter not one bit, AT guns are killed without firing a shot and infantry are slaughtered and sent packing by mass tank fire. I agree about the time limit matter, but you can produce time limits in custom scenarios. My biggest issue is as far as I can see there is no clock on display. What?! Still, hope is the last to die.

A usefull tip, you can target obscured icons. Right click on an obscured target and it will be tracked by the unit.

Well, my advice is really to go online with a custom scenario. Altering the computer opponent is more effort than it's worth. The gameplay I have seen in the scenarios (albeit briefly from another persons copy) are all much the same, ie wave after wave of tank battles with infantry in the shadows. And I agree with your complaint. Until the many other issues are addressed and a proper editor are provided I'm holding off purchase. All the same, have fun.

In my opion I think you're diving in too deep. The first step you should make is a logical plan that can be coded in small steps based on small elements. Once you've done that, ask yourself how each element will respond to a threat and come up with codeable procedure. If you're not exhausted by now you might consider the supporting relationships between each of the elements. In short, not really.

Only one, Tellytubbies do Barney the Dinosaur.

In response to Mannheim Tanker; yes I agree, but this seems to be as a result of the scenario design and visibility not working as well as it should. Let me put it this way, if you design a scenario in Combat Mission with as many tanks as Theater of War, would it be any different? The move from turn base to real time is always akward so here are ome other tips: DON'T PANIC. Move small numbers short distances. This is not Combat Mission. Stop fussing with your troops so much. Get them to the terrain in blocks in the right formation and they will do the rest. Use the hold fire command for units in reserve, moving up and on ambush. Only release them when target is within range. Using this technique my best result in the Demo mission is about thirty enemy infantry and two enemy tanks with the a squad in the front trenches. Shooting gives away your position. Number one rule, only shoot when required. The column formation is best for moving troops in and around dead ground, it's nice and compact. I tend to use line or wedge otherwise. What cover they take is highly dependent on which way they face. Make sure they are rotated in the right direction (do it on a unit basis). Play online with a good custom scenario.

In the information panel there are three icons of a man (standing, kneeling and lying). These toggle with the left mouse click. If one is lit that is how they get about (running and firing standing, in dashes and firing kneeling, crwaling and firing prone respectively). If none is lit they choose depending on their circumstances. Don't worry about them crawling about. As I've told you their looking for targets and they will return. Using the hold fire and holp position toggle will stop them harming themselves if you wish (bottom right of the panel). Now some game. Lets say we have three squads of Russian infantry and are setting up. Divide it up into three groups (Rifles, SMGs and LMGS). Rifles are your fire base, SMGS are your assault group, LMGS another fire base. Choose the right leader to go with the right group and assign them. You can even divide these in half and place one under the command of an officer and the other a NCO (for bounding). (edit; Took out a section that was wrong) Now apply all the stuff you know with your optimised squads, and away you go. Hope it helps. [ May 16, 2007, 07:57 AM: Message edited by: PFMM ]

As I had a quick reply and I'm still about I'll post some more. I've done alot of testing of the game and in regard to the visibility problems these are my observations: Firing units tend to aim at a center point of the object. So when they tell you they can't fire at their target, use the aiming cues and try telling them to aim for the turret or head (Alt 1 hotkey by default). Higher skill shooters I found tend to take these shots on their own while others need to be told. In the case of infantry try telling them to stand up and they will often take the shot. The visibility model is very dependent on the scouting skill. When this is combined with the three hundred and sixty degree spotting ability of all units I feel you get strange results. However, within certain confines of the scouting skill on both sides you do get reasonable results. It certainly needs work and in my opinion is the weakest part of the design. Infantry are not useless, far from it. All the lessons learnt from Combat Mission are applicale here. Move them short distances in bursts in covered terrain. Tell them to hold fire, as often this is what is giving them away to the enemy. Learn to crawl and don't do head on assaults, and when you do keep it to twenty meters or less on a suppressed foe. Detach MGs from the squad (in their own group with a staff leader for support) put them prone elsewhere for best results, the same with snipers (and keep them prone too). The most infantry you want to place in any one trench is equal to the number of firing postions. Grenades are your friend, make sure someone in a given position has some. Keep leaders in defensive positions on reverse slopes as they are the first to go. The wandering behaviour is them picking a target and moving forward to get a shot (don't let tanks do this and issue the hold order. Do let infantry do this. They will both return in any case), OR they have panicked. Learn to use the area fire order. It is important. I cue my hotkeys so they are all within grasp as follows; Q-forward W-stop E-reverse R-turn to A-area fire, S-storm D-defend Z-next unit X-previous unit C-pick up And don't RUSH. Headlong flights into the enemy are most likely what are causing pain. Do it on your time, not his. I can vouche for the multiplayer, I created a scenario of a reinforced company of US infantry attacking an outpost of German infantry backed with tanks in low light and fog and it was a blast (for the record I used a cronies copy via LAN on his machines).

Some undocumented (I think, I only have the demo) bits of information. Double left clicking on ANY infantry will bring up it's squad in the panel, and ctrl left clicking on aunit will bring up all the units of that type on screen. Also clicking on the unit icons at the borders will take you to those units (friendly and enemy). My issue with this game is the extensive use of scripting combined with the lack of both individual unit and group unit routines, which limits competetive gameplay and also limits the number and variety of scenarioes that will be produced. That and the lack of multiplayer support.

It depends, but assuming a combined armed assault against prepared defences: Know the capabilities of his forces and your own. Have a decent stategy. find the enemy with reconnaissance. Assemble your forces in protected ground out of sight of the enemy. Use artillery and smoke to mask your advance. Bluff with screening forces. Move tanks to covered and hull down positions to take out AT guns and tanks. Then use them to supress and outflank his lines and disrupt enemy reserves. When the time is right, bring your infantry forward moving them forward in small bounds with covering fire and supporting any armour. Mass for effect, but not so much you present an inviting target. Get close, less than two hundred meters for tanks and fifty meters for infantry. Closer is always better. Also search for other threads on this board. There are some worthwhile how to do it's about. Authors JasonC and Walpurgis Night come to mind.

Unless you have long lists of conditionals and subconditionals, and lots of those as well it shold not be a problem. What is more of a concern is if they all occur at the same time causing noticable lag. What I see is people wishing for the situation where they place some tanks in a location and they then engage in a competative manner. Forget it, they know how to advance straight forward or retreat straight back and that's pretty much it. If you want that flanking manuever you will have to code it in the script.

In short no. It will both shoot at and make afetr targets if they are in sight. After that, it will go back to it's original position. That's all. So if you replace a computer controlled heavy tank with a light tank in a scenario and change nothing else, it will use the light tank just as it would the light tank. You must code the game play for the computer for each scenario you create or modify. I know, because I'm currently doing just that.

Just pissing on your parade. You will most likely find that one or so tweaks will then require a few more tweaks somewhere else and so on. And one of those tweaks will eventually require you to reprogram the gaming routines of the scenario. Programming good game routines is NOT easy, and it has to be done for every scenario on a case by case instance. The more various the scenario is, the more extensive the code will become. It is alot of work. The current ideology is to keep the computer opponent fighting you, which keeps you from noticing how moronic it is and keeps it interesting. If you intend to let the computer find you before it acts you will find it both even more moronic and dull.

It's amusing to see this flare up again. With the release of Theater of War I can see some of what people have against realtime gaming. It also reinforces my view that we need less emphasis on systems and more emphasis on gaming. In some ways Theater of War reminds me of the game I produced almost two decades ago, a dull boring grind, though looking much, much better. You might as well take a pen and stab away at a graph.

The rampages would be interesting to see.