Mr. Tittles

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/navy/docs/es310/warheads/Warheads.htm another good read

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Capsule/2930/pzpanther/pzpanther-Charakteristics.html The penetration tables here are for 75L70 gun. The round is coming in at an angle. It says that T34 hull can not be penetrated after 300M.

I saw a good book in a University library that examined US-German armor battles in Normandy till the end of the war. One of the surprising things is that the real advantage for the Germans was only at long range. At medium ranges, it was a marginal advantage and they were at a disadvantage at close range. I forget the actual definitions of these ranges. This is taking into account the numbers of tanks fielded in typical battles. The use of Panther tanks with inexperienced crews (unlike Tiger units which were mostly elite) was a disaster and negated the advantage of the equipment. The book was well researched and agreed that German tank losses from AP fire was a minority compared to abandonment and self destruction. Arty and air force were also minority factors but added to causes for abandonment, etc. German Mech forces, like most military forces, could not stand overwhelming air superiority. I will have to find the book again and give it a real read. The number of Allied tanks destroyed by AP is a majority, I believe.

there is no formal list i can see. best to read the threads and figure whats up.

Recently someone posted that if being attacked by tree-burst artillery, the best counter measure would be to lean up against a tree. I have never heard of such a thing and recall the training specifying that IF we were to stick around during the attack, THEN balling up at the base of the largest available tree behind the incoming trajectory was as good as it was going to get. This is all coming about because no one has dug 4 foot deep fighting positions with overhead cover for you. But what are the real dangers? In the case of tank fire, it would probably be a good idea. The flat trajectory rounds that detonate in trees between you and the tank would throw fragments forward and at an angle and the tree would help you survive. Those rounds that detonate behind you would throw the fragments 'down range'. In the case of mortars, I am not so sure tree bursts are THAT great. Since the round would throw much of its metal to the sides, it would be shredding the tops of the trees. Mortar airbursts that made it down to 2-10 feet off the ground before exploding, would be devastating. A round that penetrated the canopy and hit a lower branch lets say. The bulbous shape of most mortar rounds would throw metal downwards and in a more distributed shape than most arty shells so even high treebursts would be worthwhile I suppose. Using a delay might be an option. The real threat, in my opinion, is the artillery shell coming in at an angle. Treebursts ahead of you and to the sides would rain down fragments from all angles. Treebursts behind you woould be worse! The lower side of the shell would blast fragments towards your exposed rear. Arty rounds and larger calibers with reaonable payload, would make secondary missiles from the trees themselves and the ricocheting of fragments off trunks is another possibility. In reality, there would be no way on earth I would stay under such conditions for more than one round. I would high tail it to real cover. I suppose defending a treeline is best done by having a trench/foxhole line forward of the actual trees, out in the 'open'. A fall back position could be further back in the trees (so the trees act as a buffer) and having decent dugouts/bunkers to get to. [ November 25, 2003, 11:22 AM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]

I thought that story was about AP ammo not HE.

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Capsule/2930/pzpanther/lowres/pzpanther-charakter4.jpg http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Capsule/2930/pzpanther/pzpanther-Charakteristics.html Heres a side by side of Panther L70 rounds. The German HE rounds I have seen seem to show very small fuzes. The US M48 75mm fuze appears to take up more of teh front of the shell. [ November 24, 2003, 07:21 PM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]

I think TCs are also visually-centric in battle. The sound of a running engine and wearing headphones, limits the battlefield information to what they can see themselves or hear through the intercom. Outside noise signatures would be very limited. On a battlefield where arty has been used to prep fire an area, the dust raised by a firing ATG would be hard to spot. The TC would have to be head out to really effectively give overwatch fire. Tanks that cant determine where AT fire is coming from would pop smoke and reverse.

I did a test to see if capturing forces is really worth 2X the amount. I used LOD. spoiler I put one plat HQ and one tank killer 2 man team in the open. I put another of each hiding in the town. The rest of the german forces were ordered to get off the board. I had all US armor surround the exposed units and killed them, even though they tried to surrender. I used area fire and yelled "die, die, die'. I then surrendered the germans. The result was not exactly double. There was 6 casualties and one was a KIA. There was 6 surrendered POWs. I got 33 points for the casualties and 64 points for the POWs. But the surprising thing was one of the bastards shot one of my TCs! I didnt pay any attention when it happened. He got 31 points!

I did a test to see if capturing forces is really worth 2X the amount. I used LOD. spoiler I put one plat HQ and one tank killer 2 man team in the open. I put another of each hiding in the town. The rest of the german forces were ordered to get off the board. I had all US armor surround the exposed units and killed them, even though they tried to surrender. I used area fire and yelled "die, die, die'. I then surrendered the germans. The result was not exactly double. There was 6 casualties and one was a KIA. There was 6 surrendered POWs. I got 33 points for the casualties and 64 points for the POWs. But the surprising thing was one of the bastards shot one of my TCs! I didnt pay any attention when it happened. He got 31 points!

Heres a fun test. Spoil'r Play Line of Defense with Germans and 200%. This should give you 4 ATGs. Leave everything else behind the hill for now so it has no LOS to the battle. Position the ATGs so they have supporting fields of fire. If you have played the game as Germans already, you should have an idea where the tanks will come from. Take both FOs and position them so they can blow the woods on the left to pieces and stop infantry from messing up the experiment. Save a few arty rounds to throw at the tank mass, not to destroy but to button them up. Take some LMGs to suppress the tank commanders also. Once they button up, they usually don't come back out. You should notice that ATGs, if they limit the number of tanks that can see them, can start attacking and survive more frequently. When they pin from incoming fire, there will be LOS breaks so that the tanks 'lose' them. If they survive to the end of the turn, hide them (if they are still drawing yellow lines) and this will further reduce LOS lines to them. Attack any tanks that are on to other ATGs and can't be stopped. a successful 'jump-off' is when all ATGs can fire at the same time at a good target. Always save one in hiding to help one that has been 'over-spotted'. A great place for ATGs is behind the wall by the big building. Scattered trees are marginal but woods are OK. Try to position ATGs so they are not facing the whole area of likely enemy tanks at once. The main fields of fire should be across the front and interlocking. Tanks that are not buttoned up will be on you like flies. They will still 'insta-spot' and nail the ATG. The AI, by the way, appears to use a bounding overwatch technique with its tanks. I say a shoot and hide order would be nice. Perhaps a shoot, pause, hide combination. [ November 23, 2003, 11:21 AM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]

Most WWII 75mm and smaller ATGs size (height-wise),were much less than a standing man. Many were about the size of a kneeling man when emplaced. Two branches from a tree would greatly reduce its shield signature. In a tree line, or set back in scrub or other vegetation, it would be a very difficult target to detect. Its main giveaway is its flash/dust/smoke upon firing. In an active battlefield with many weapons firing, HE landing and confusion; it would not be the dead giveaway it is in CMBB.

I think some people are just in love with omnispotting. They like the insta-spotting that was in CMBB. The reason that ATG are unrealistic, is because of shared spotting. Once spotted, twice dead. Do you really think that an ATG in a tree line that ceases fire during a battle, after firing one shot is labeled with GPS coordinates and that information is broadcast to anyone with an LOS? IRL, an ATG would rarely be pin pointed like they are in the game. A better game mechanic would be a 'sound-flash-contact' that may be close to where the gun really is. Want to pepper the tree line? Go ahead, but don't think that you know exactly where it is. ATG were greatly feared on the eastern front more than tanks. They could not be spotted as easily and needed precision HE fire to deal with them. It was easier to deal with a tank with AP fire than a ATG with HE fire. In a desert/open environment, ATGs would not stand a chance under CMBB modeling. I believe the game has made significant changes to the spotting/identification routines. And it is Goooood! I was thinking that I would not buy CMAK. After playing the demo, and seeing the inexpensive price, I would not only buy it but also a CMBB updated version that uses CMAK technology. [ November 23, 2003, 12:22 AM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]

Yah, doze yermans ate the cans of 'Old Man' and drank the goot biere.. somebody light a match already.

Yeah Well Thanks. I have seen pics of them being used without turret as a prime mover of sorts. They still had the 75mm. Heres some cool Grant Dozers http://anzacsteel.hobbyvista.com/Armoured%20Vehicles/m3ph_2.htm [ November 22, 2003, 04:11 PM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]

These tanks should have been turned into 4.2 inch mortar SPs. The 37mm turret should have been removed and a 4.2 inch mortar put in a revolving turret. The bow weapon, 75mm, should have been retained. The side doors would have facilitated ammo handling. The unique combination of a direct fire HE and WP weapon, the 75mm, with the unique rifled indirect fire weapon, would have made a excellent support system that could stand off beyond direct fire range and pound the enemy. The height of the vehicle would be an advantage. The armor would be sufficient for counter battery threats and long distance AP threats.

Area fire is therefore a gamey human element in the ...engine. Units given area fire should have a 'scatter' to the aim point and rapidly lose interest in the order if other 'real' threatening targets pop up. The scatter would vary the aim point about the human designated area. Overall, I feel that less detail about enemy units is being presented. Perhaps its the dust (which is great), but its also teh number of men in a unit, etc. I never open up my ATG fire unless I have a limited amount of targets. If more than three tanks/SPs can return fire, then I wait. I use ATG like snipers. When push comes to shove, I open up with everything to button all armor up, put out smoke, assault with infantry anti-armor, etc. Line of Defense (spoiler) shows that a well timed, coordinated combined arms aproach can gut the attackers. Even before the Tiger arrives.

Well, that only applies to play against the AI. A human opponent switches to area fire right away. Personally I find it bogus that the gun disappears on hide. The human player just bangs with area fire, so you needlessly make the AI weaker. Clock of death - yes, always. Disappering so that the TacAI doesn't shoot on it anymore? No. </font>

I notice that ATGs, when they get pinned, tend to lose the incoming-LOS lines quickly. This is good as it helps them live to shoot another round or two. I always thought there should be a shoot'n'hide type order. The effect would be the same. I wonder what tweaks have been done to the LOS/Identification. I seem to find that less information is given about enemy units details. [ November 21, 2003, 11:32 PM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]

Spoiler * etc I just played the June 44 as US and had a minor victory. 57:43 German Casualties: 124 POW: 32 (German Surrender too) US Casualties:61 I held all flags. I had a 2:1 'kill' ratio and he surrenders and I have all the flags and its a Minor Victory. I stomped his nuts. I get 1092 points for German casualties. I get 261 for POWs. I get 700 for the flags. He gets 1522 for killing Green US Troops? [ November 21, 2003, 10:05 PM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]

Well if the commanders MG-turret actually turned, then it would be multi-turreted and multigunned too.

As it should be too. See the CMBB thread 'Medium caliber HE'

Abrams, the tank battalion commander, would threaten to weld the hatches open if a tank commander was too under-the-hatch. Its just too dependant on variables. In open terrain, TCs would be half out of the turret. In closed up bocage or towns, it would be suicide to have your head out. Sherman tanks did not have the better german style cupolas till later.

He folded. Thats everyone if you total it up. Lots of HQs were captured.

I knocked the snot out of the US in the June 44 battle: 238 casualties=2485 71 prisoners=691 Seems to me I should have shot the Ami's and I would have won bigger. I was low on ammo though.