Mr. Tittles

First with TNT vs. amatol. Usefulness as a cutting charge has nothing to do with explosive effect, and one factor does not describe all uses of explosives. Amatol is made by mixing TNT, a true high explosive, with ammonium nitrate (AN), a much slower, "push" explosive, that happens to have a very high gas volume (980 cubic cm per gram, vs. 710 for TNT). This can be useful for moving rock or cutting a beam, but for shrapnel production what you want is high detonation velocity and high total energy of detonation. Shrapnel? Who's making shrapnel? Jason are you wearing a spikey WWI German helmet like Colonel Klink had on his desk? Its fragments baby and I got you dead to rights! [ November 11, 2003, 11:40 PM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]

just for reference

Are you refering to detonation pressure?

DETONATION Substances which content themselves with merely exploding, we group together as ‘low’ explosives; (This term “low” was dropped in favour of the word “Propellant” Substances which undergo “Detonation” have undergone a further step in the field of chemical decomposition. The term “Detonate” derives from the Latin ‘be’ (down) and ‘tonare’ (to thunder) Substances that detonate are called “High Explosive”(HE), Indicating that their behaviour pattern has become enhanced in some way. Usually, a high explosive starts to burn when initiated, but the action accelerates rapidly to a point where the pattern changes to a sudden wave of molecular disturbance which is propagated throughout the explosive substance (Fig 9) and is known as the ‘detonation wave’. See Fig 2 for a definition of the word “Detonate” BRISANCE The intense crushing, shattering effect (called “Brisance”) (The adjective form of this word is “brisant” ) which a detonating explosive can exert on hard materials is due to the shock wave. The Brisance of an explosive is a qualitative description of how much damage it will do when exploded. It is a function of the “Velocity of Detonation” and the pressure exerted by the shock wave, know as “Detonation Pressure” The word Brisant originates from the French verb, Briser, which means “To break” in English. Brisance does not have any scientific units and cannot be calculated. DETONATION VELOCITY AND PRESSURE The detonation velocity is defined as the velocity of sound in the explosive at the temperature it detonates at, added to the speed of the reacting material as it moves forward in the detonation wave. Example Sound travels at 5400 ms-1 in detonating TNT. The speed of the reacting TNT as it moves forward in the detonation wave is 1500 ms-1 Answer The Detonation Velocity of TNT is 5400 + 1500 = 6900 ms-1 The Detonation Pressure (P) can be calculated from the formula below P = 2.5 x ∆ x D2 ÷ 1000 000 where: ∆ = Density of HE in gcm–3 D = Detonation velocity in ms–1 The units of Detonation pressure are kBar Example Given that the density of TNT is 1.57 gcm–-3 find the Detonation pressure. Answer P = 2.5 x 1.57 x 69002 ÷ 1000 000 P = 187 kBar To get some idea of the size of this pressure here are three facts about 187 kBar • It is 187 000 x Atmospheric Pressure • It is 1000 x the pressure that liquid hydrogen must be stored at in order to keep it a liquid. • If a 40 Tonne Lorry was dropped on to a needle that has a square cross section 1.5mm x 1.5mm, the pressure at the other end of the needle would be 187 kBar.

Well you could begin by admitting you were wrong about the 105mm shell being heard or not. Its obvious you did not read the whole link that described the high velocity shot. Andreas caught you on that and so did I. If you are to be taken seriously, then please read the links, etc. [ November 11, 2003, 10:04 PM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]

TNT D=24,400 fps (7507 M/s) M48,75mm high-explosive shell,standard (for M3 and M4) ;shell contained 1.47 lbs.of TNT (or 0.11 lbs.of cast TNT and 1.36 lbs.of Amatol as an alternate); {TNT is 0.668 kg) 81mm mortar Firing;mortars .Ammunition was an H.E.shell,M43A1 (6.87 lbs.)(range 100 to 3290 yds.); M43A1 —81mm,H.E.shell,6.92 lbs.,TNT bursting charge of 1.22 lbs.or 0.98 pound of 50/50 Amatol and 0.19 pound cast TNT,or 1.28 pounds trimonite (Drawing in 1944 Catalogue,p.529). American shell 75mm M3 shell HE M48 Total wt (lbs) 14.6 (6.636 kg) Filling (lbs) 1.7 ? So.. D=7507 M=0.668 m=6.636-0.668=5.96 Vf=7507/3[sqrt(2*0.668)/(2*5.96+0.668)] Vf=2859 M/s This is the initial static velocity given to a 75mm M48 HE shell fragments. The forward velocity from the gun is around 570 M/s. The HE shell is spinning and the fragments from the sides of the shell would get another 75 M/s or so. Refering to the link above, the vector angle from the dynamic forward component of the shells velocity gives: v=sqrt((2859+75)^2+ (570)^2)= 2989 M/s angle =79 degrees (measured from 0 degrees being along the flight of the shell) In the case of a HE filled shell, like the sherman 75mm M48, it can be characterized as having a HE content that will throw the majority of its steel fragments at a substantial angle. That is, it will blast most metal out sideways. The forward velocity, even using a muzzle velocity, does not 'tilt forward' the fragment spray appreciably. The static Vf is 5 times greater than the muzzle velocity. (to be continued) [ November 11, 2003, 07:14 PM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]

Vf=D/3 (sqrt(2M/(2m+M))) where D is explosives detonation velocity M/s M is mass of explosive in kg m is mass of case This lovely equation is brought to you by The Royal Order of Cannonballers http://www.atra.mod.uk/RSABST/HTML/WarHeadsIndex.HTML Smashing stuff. Got to love them British. i recommend anyone that cares about HE read this. Basically a formula for Fragment velocity (Vf) I will develop some interesting applications in following posts. Basically the following will be shown: 1. When a bomb/shell drops on its nose vertically, it better have either a very slow descent or a very fast explosive (read: explosive train). Mortars do this very well. 2. When a direct fire weapon, like a tank gun fires a HE shell, it is actually advantagous (in certain circumstances) to have a high velocity projectile/low explosive content. 3. The fuze anddd the angle are such major players that to not include them will ignore major weapons differences. One thing I hope everyone can get from this thread; the thought that the projectiles velocity has no impact on the outcome of the HE event is rubbish. Many people just look at HE content and wall thickness. They have to take into account these factors as well as projectile velocity, angle of attack, fuze options, etc. [ November 11, 2003, 11:47 PM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]

lose your condom?

I bet you iron your underwear too, don't you. </font>

I think weapons should have multi-ratings as follows: 1. Blast: reflection of the weapons explosive destructiveness. Its ability to knock down buildings, bunkers, tracks off tanks, etc. Mostly based on HE content but also influenced by velocity and mass of the incoming projectile. Blast is also tied to dust effects from ground-target conditions. 2. Fragmentation: Reflection of the deadly projectile emission. Based on a standard. Mortar standard is 85 degree angle of attack. Indirect based on 45 degree angle, direct fire based on 4 degree. All on flat open ground firm soil point detonatation. Reflects an area in square dimensions that 50% casualty fragmentation produces. Shape mentioned (circular, elipse, clover, etc. Fragmentation has a dust creating component also but smaller than blast. 3. Incindiery. Reflects ability of projectile to start fires. (parentheses shows seconds duration) Also a flame effect that may cause casualties/troop displacement. 4. Fuze options. Point detonating/Delay/Time. Direct fire: point detonating may cause airburst in woods and other vertical targets. Delay may cause internal building airbursts and airbursts in open terrain (ricochet). Indirect fire: Point detonating may also cause airbursts in woods/trees/etc. Delay may cause superior destruction of trenches, buildings or, if the angle of descent is steep enough, a ricochet effect. Some examples would be: 50mm mortar blast: 6 frag: 78.5/circ incindiery: 2 (1) fuze: point 50mm ATG L/60 blast: 14 frag: 61.5/fwd V incidiery: 3 (1) fuze: point/delay 60mm mortar WP blast: 1 frag: 8/circ incidiery: 20 (50) fuze: point/delay 105mm HE Blast: 114 frag: 4800/clover incidiery: 4 (2) fuse: point/delay/time These are just made up guesses but the idea is to break out the weapons characteristics. There is still much more going on behind the scenes due to flatness of terrain, target type and cover, etc. Actual angles would shape patterns differently. [ November 09, 2003, 07:37 PM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]

The 50mm HE sprg could be fired from PAK 38, and KWK 50mm weapons. I believe the L60 KWK and L60 PAK shared ammo (but there may have been a difference in firing technology; electric vs percussion). The 50mm 'short' had a different necked-down case but probably shared projectiles with the longer version. The Germans made 2,426,300 50mm HE rounds in 1942. Thats the majority type for this year for this caliber. It must been the majority type fired also. Much ammo is destroyed by artillery, air attack, weather, abandonment, etc. But the production numbers do give a relative usage level. It certainly was a big AP40 user (check out the production number for 37mm AP40, its certainly a common round). Wonder how much was available once production stopped? Pumas perhaps getting some? The 50mm ammunition production shows this weapon family to have been a major player in 1939-1944. A point about ATGs firing HE. If the HE round is fired at a lower velocity, the weapon should be very stable and repeatable. http://members.tripod.com/~Sturmvogel/GermWeapProd.html [ November 09, 2003, 11:44 AM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]

Just soem real oddities: The cartridges shown above are for the German MG 151/20 (20x81): "Minensprenggranate mit Zerleger" (HEI-SD) mine shell, m=92,0g, l=82,9mm, 18g high explosive, Vo=785m/s, ol=146,1mm, 14,8g Nz.R.P. (1,3x1,45/0,2) propellant, electrical primer "J", headstamp: exw | 8 | 45 , yellow projectile with green band below fuze, black markings: M El exw 91 45 Mv exw 263/44 , "Panzerbrandgranate Phosphor ohne Zerleger" (API) Phosphorous shell, m=115g, l=80,0mm, 3,6g White Phosphorous in sealed Aluminum container, Vo=720m/s, ol=145,5mm, 14,8g Nz.R.P. (1,3x1,45/0,2) propellant, percussion primer, headstamp: wg | 593 | 44 , black bullet with blue band above bourolet, white markings: Ph edq 335/44, stamped in markings: eel 147/44 If these are 20mm, then the shell on the left has a 1-2mm wall thickness. Also interesting is the thicker walled white phos companion! http://www.geocities.com/russianammo/Cutaways.html [ November 08, 2003, 10:30 PM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]

Can someone please post the US 60mm, 81mm and 4.2" mortar blast numbers from CMBO?

major questions are: 1. Are the plates parallel? 2. Do they remain that way under attack? 3. Does the AP penetrator reach its diameter width through the first plate before hitting the second? 4. What effects on the penetrator does the loss of spin have? Does it pitch/yaw/roll? 5. What effects would having melted metal on teh penetrator from the first plate have on the second plate?

The German 50mm HE is 8.8 inches long and two inches across. The Soviet 45mm is also very long in length compared to its width. I think there is a cutoff point where the accuracy does not payoff if the payload is too small. A 2 pr. with 0.125 # of filler starts to drift into a 'big-bullet' catagory. You have to actually hit someone or someones weapon practically. Maybe there are 37-40mm AA weapons that do chunk up larger payloads but 20mm, to me, are very large bullets. Someone metioned that the effects of HE/Blast are circular in the games representation. This would be a big booboo. In the case of mortars, its fogivable but arty and direct fire is much different.

Sp38 žÖ’e(HE)550m/s 1.86kg(3.3kg)¤165g(280g) ¤ ’eŠÛ’· 224mm(503mm) –òä° 419*77ƒÓ I believe this refers to the Spr 38 5 cm HE round (L60). Velocity is 550M/s Weight is 1.86 kg (projectile) HE filler is 165grams (0.363 pounds) Length is 224mm This compares with the 45mm as being a faster round, less weight but more HE. It would be very accurate and a precision delivery system. Its deadliness would be the ability to put these HE rounds where they were needed. The added velocity not only increase precision buts adds a punch to the HE/fragments. For targets with a height signature, like buildings, bunkers, etc; it would be deadly. When firing from a height difference, such as across a small valley at targets on a opposing slope, it would be deadly. its main drawback would be when on extremely flat terrain against 'flat' targets. The slower 45mm round would be more capable in these situations. These occasions are usually not that common anyway with intervening terrain/brush. Also, ATGs usually would not expose themselves for such targets, artillery/mortars would be more than adequate. [ November 08, 2003, 03:14 PM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]

http://www.xenophongi.org/milhist/modern/deswar2.htm a good read

http://www.geocities.com/firefly1002000/tankammo.html This site has a nice line up of ammo used in the desert. Interesting note about early Grant ammo fuze problems and solution.

http://www.inert-ord.net/russ02i/mort_at/R5082.html This site shows photos of mortar ammo.

I would like to turn to a discussion of the original matter: namely the effectiveness of small (50mm) HE. I believe the first post brought it up. http://www.geocities.com/russianammo/57mm.html Please look at this page and study the 45mm russian rounds in cutaway drawings and chart information. http://www.geocities.com/russianammo/p45mmHE.jpg Some HE highlights: 1. The 45mm HE round has a very low velocity of 343 M/s 2 It has a 135 gram payload. About 1/3 of a pound. Early in the war its TNT changing to a mixture A-IX-2. 3. HE round is very long for a round of its size. Almost like a rocket. 4. HE shell weighs 2.15 Kg (about 4.75 pounds) 5. Rather thick walled for such a low velocity weapon (343 M/s) 6. Interesting thinning of walls and large concentration of HE towards front of shell. To look at the stats, this weapon does not appear to have a devastating HE round. The fact is, its a devastating round when fired by this weapon! In front of Seoul 2/5 from the 104 fights without a single heavy gun in action. We'd run into a swarm of 45mm AT guns, and they had sniped our heavy guns out of existence. Those 45mm AT guns fired a round that you could see leave the barrel and proceeded along like a red hot baseball. You could see them coming if they weren't aimed straight at you. Chilling. http://www.rt66.com/~korteng/SmallArms/30calhv.htm The reason for its deadliness? The ability to put a HE round , with precision, against a position. A sand-bagged HMG position would offer little in the way of cover. This weapon fired a cannister round with a higher muzzle velocity than this HE round. the AP round was 820 M/s. The German 50mm HE round was also known for being effective for its size. The Germans certainly made enough of them. http://members.tripod.com/~Sturmvogel/GermWeapProd.html 50mm Sprgr. (1939)285.5 (1941)336.6 (1942)2426.3 (1943)3164.5 (1944)1206.5 (1945)34 The Germans made 1.2 million of them in 1944? Another site with 5 cm production numbers (in german) http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Waffen/panzer3-R.htm If anyone can post data on this HE round, especially a cutaway, it would be appreciated. [ November 08, 2003, 02:47 PM: Message edited by: Mr. Tittles ]

Reagan shot Lennon?

I wonder if the Germans didnt capture factories for these weapons and ammunition. Perhaps the sights may have been different.

A secret revealed to me by a talking cave spider (yes, he had glowing eyes) was that the first plate will strip ballistic caps off the penetrator and the second plate should be face hardened.

I recently dressed myself in my dark cape, put myself into a deep trance state and contemplated spaced armor effectiveness while in a deep deserted cave. I ordered pizza but it never arrived. One of the things I came up with (besides the rule never to eat cave spiders) is that spaced armor is most effective if the first plate struck is at a 45 degree angle downward, like the lower hull of a panther or T34, and the second plate is sloped back, like the upper plate of a panther/T34. The advantage of this is that the AP round after penetrating the initial plate, is deflected upwards so that it attacks the next sloped plate at an even greater angle. This ricochet upwards is key. If the armor arrangement is viewed from the side, it forms a V shape.

http://www.battlefield.ru/guns/project_4.html This site claims that German 120mm and Soviet 120mm are identical in weight/charge. They are really the same weapon. The soviet is Iron cast. Was the German different?