Newbtler

Italians: AB41 scout car: it lacks its coaxial machine-gun. In real life it had a rear-facing mg and a coax-mg. It's 20mm M35 Breda gun has a blast of only 1 (!). The 20mm Breda AA gun has a blast of 3 in the game, and I guess it should be the same for the AB41 as it was the same gun. It is the same for the L6/40 light tank. Its 20mm has a blast of 1 while it should be 3. AS42 with 20mm AA and the Autocannone da 20 have the right blast values. M13/40: I finally found out that they received their radios from around middle 1941 (source: Gli Autoveicoli da Combattimento dell'Esercito Italiano - Stato Maggiore Esercito). Infantry: squad leaders still have their MAB38 SMG guns. I've never read anything about that. They were very rare,usually only the Paras or the PAI (Italian African Police) had them. Infantry squads used only Carcano rifles and Breda 30 LMGs. [ February 23, 2004, 04:45 AM: Message edited by: Newbtler ]

Hi everybody, thanks Dorosh for making this thread, it helps a lot. Romolus, you wrote: "...Another problem about the Semovente da 75/18 (so as the L40 da 47/32) is the lack of the 8mm (bow) MG..." IIRC, these Semoventi didn't have a bow MG. The 75/18 had a Breda 30 LMG stored inside, and could be used by its crew just in case. I think the same was for the L40. Can anyone help me out in searching when exactly Italian tanks had radios installed? In which period? Cheers, Riccardo

My grandpa (Father's side) was in the 180° Ospedale da Campo (Field Hospital), attached to the 1st "Superga" Infantry Division. He was stationed in Sicily (his division was preparing for the air assault of Malta) then was sent in Tunisia and he was captured by the English. I didn't have the chance to know him, as he died in 1982 by cancer as I was just born. My dad told me he didn't speak much about his war experiences. He just told him that it was an inferno, they were behind the first lines, out of medicins and often had to "steal" many bottles of whiskey from British prisoners to ease the pain of the sufferings. Only 4 or 5 men alive in his small unit, including a medical captain who went to become his friend for the remainder of his life. He sometimes remembered terrific wounds, stomachs opened, and many and many soldiers (Allies and Axis) crying for their loved ones. After the war he couldn't see blood anymore. Well, he was captured, went on the USS "Vulcan" (I can see that in his POW Card), and then was sent to Gibraltar with the Red Cross. He often spoke very well of the English he got to know. Sometimes he was bombed by night Italian planes while he was there. We still have some pictures of him in the war, and his ID and POW card. His brother fought the partisans in Yugoslavia in some big unit (can't remember which one) and came home safely. He's still alive, 80+ years old and looks like he's 30 or something, amazing. He still drives his car. He told stories about Italian soldiers that were taken prisoners who were dismembered and given to the pigs... Well, he still doesn't like that part of the world and their citizens at all. My grandpa's cousin fought as a Leutenent in the Greek/Albanian campaign and later in Russia in the elite "Julia" Div. Alpina. Survived, came home almost by feet. I think he's still alive, but I've seen him so few times I can't remember him very well. My grandpa (mother's side) was too young to fight. In 1943 he was captured by some German troops in his town of Ariccia (overlooking the Anzio town, 30kms south of Rome) when he was asking them for some food, and passed a night with them, scared to death. He was released later. He still remembers very well German tanks passing in his town coming from the frontline, damaged, dirty and some with blood on them. Sometimes he let me see where these units were, or were the flak was stationed etc. He and his family got to know an Austrian who was saved by my grandpa's father when he cought fire from a light torch. His name was Agustin or something and could speak some italian. He told me so many other stories and tales, I could write for hours. Nice thread btw! Ciao,

My grandpa (Father's side) was in the 180° Ospedale da Campo (Field Hospital), attached to the 1st "Superga" Infantry Division. He was stationed in Sicily (his division was preparing for the air assault of Malta) then was sent in Tunisia and he was captured by the English. I didn't have the chance to know him, as he died in 1982 by cancer as I was just born. My dad told me he didn't speak much about his war experiences. He just told him that it was an inferno, they were behind the first lines, out of medicins and often had to "steal" many bottles of whiskey from British prisoners to ease the pain of the sufferings. Only 4 or 5 men alive in his small unit, including a medical captain who went to become his friend for the remainder of his life. He sometimes remembered terrific wounds, stomachs opened, and many and many soldiers (Allies and Axis) crying for their loved ones. After the war he couldn't see blood anymore. Well, he was captured, went on the USS "Vulcan" (I can see that in his POW Card), and then was sent to Gibraltar with the Red Cross. He often spoke very well of the English he got to know. Sometimes he was bombed by night Italian planes while he was there. We still have some pictures of him in the war, and his ID and POW card. His brother fought the partisans in Yugoslavia in some big unit (can't remember which one) and came home safely. He's still alive, 80+ years old and looks like he's 30 or something, amazing. He still drives his car. He told stories about Italian soldiers that were taken prisoners who were dismembered and given to the pigs... Well, he still doesn't like that part of the world and their citizens at all. My grandpa's cousin fought as a Leutenent in the Greek/Albanian campaign and later in Russia in the elite "Julia" Div. Alpina. Survived, came home almost by feet. I think he's still alive, but I've seen him so few times I can't remember him very well. My grandpa (mother's side) was too young to fight. In 1943 he was captured by some German troops in his town of Ariccia (overlooking the Anzio town, 30kms south of Rome) when he was asking them for some food, and passed a night with them, scared to death. He was released later. He still remembers very well German tanks passing in his town coming from the frontline, damaged, dirty and some with blood on them. Sometimes he let me see where these units were, or were the flak was stationed etc. He and his family got to know an Austrian who was saved by my grandpa's father when he cought fire from a light torch. His name was Agustin or something and could speak some italian. He told me so many other stories and tales, I could write for hours. Nice thread btw! Ciao,

My grandpa (Father's side) was in the 180° Ospedale da Campo (Field Hospital), attached to the 1st "Superga" Infantry Division. He was stationed in Sicily (his division was preparing for the air assault of Malta) then was sent in Tunisia and he was captured by the English. I didn't have the chance to know him, as he died in 1982 by cancer as I was just born. My dad told me he didn't speak much about his war experiences. He just told him that it was an inferno, they were behind the first lines, out of medicins and often had to "steal" many bottles of whiskey from British prisoners to ease the pain of the sufferings. Only 4 or 5 men alive in his small unit, including a medical captain who went to become his friend for the remainder of his life. He sometimes remembered terrific wounds, stomachs opened, and many and many soldiers (Allies and Axis) crying for their loved ones. After the war he couldn't see blood anymore. Well, he was captured, went on the USS "Vulcan" (I can see that in his POW Card), and then was sent to Gibraltar with the Red Cross. He often spoke very well of the English he got to know. Sometimes he was bombed by night Italian planes while he was there. We still have some pictures of him in the war, and his ID and POW card. His brother fought the partisans in Yugoslavia in some big unit (can't remember which one) and came home safely. He's still alive, 80+ years old and looks like he's 30 or something, amazing. He still drives his car. He told stories about Italian soldiers that were taken prisoners who were dismembered and given to the pigs... Well, he still doesn't like that part of the world and their citizens at all. My grandpa's cousin fought as a Leutenent in the Greek/Albanian campaign and later in Russia in the elite "Julia" Div. Alpina. Survived, came home almost by feet. I think he's still alive, but I've seen him so few times I can't remember him very well. My grandpa (mother's side) was too young to fight. In 1943 he was captured by some German troops in his town of Ariccia (overlooking the Anzio town, 30kms south of Rome) when he was asking them for some food, and passed a night with them, scared to death. He was released later. He still remembers very well German tanks passing in his town coming from the frontline, damaged, dirty and some with blood on them. Sometimes he let me see where these units were, or were the flak was stationed etc. He and his family got to know an Austrian who was saved by my grandpa's father when he cought fire from a light torch. His name was Agustin or something and could speak some italian. He told me so many other stories and tales, I could write for hours. Nice thread btw! Ciao,

I was playing Medieval: Total war and was wondering: why can't CM get some of its features? There are so many cool things in this game that could be "copied" and simply put in the CM engine. (Just like the Asians did in the past with some cars' mechanics) 1.) A very nice effect is that you can't move in the map too far ahead of your men, as in real life. You can't simply look from your enemy position, nor go there and look at their armor, or see where exactly your shells land. Imagine what an effect could this have in CM: you can see tanks in distance and you can't recognize them exactly; you can see some enemy infantry and you can look at them clearly only when meters away and suddenly you can hear them saying phrases in their languages. It could make the game much more "deep". In order to see better, you should move some friendly units closer to the enemy. I really think it would be a great boost to the game. 2.) Infantry; in Medieval they look almost 2d, but they represent exactly 1 man. Sure they're not fully 3d but who cares? 1 man for every man in a squad. IIRC, Total war can handle as many as 10.000 men and without stuttering or slowing down. I don't really these could be added to the CM:AK game but maybe in the next game... What do you think? Ciao,

Hi everybody, finally I got my game here in Italy too and it's splendid! :cool: Graphics are very good, dust and smoke is fantastic .That's something I've always wanted, dust raised by artillery. It really creates that sort of chaos one can imagine there was in a battlefield. The Italian voices are great, good work! And then... I bought a pair of 3d glasses and I'm currently playing the game in full 3d and it's absolutely GREAT! It's hard to explain in words, but it looks like you're inside the game, giving orders between your troops. Well, this is a Patch request and Bug reports thread, so I begin with what I've seen wrong in the game. 1.) Please, get the Beretta MAB 38 out!. I've never ever read any accounts of Italians having MAB 38 in North Africa. IIRC, only some units of the P.A.I. (Italian colonial police) had them, not surely front line infantry. 2 out of 4 squads in the standard platoon were armed exclusively with rifles. In 1943 some units were equipped with MABs in Tunisia but they were the exception. 2.) There were no Radios in the Italian tanks or tankettes in 1940 and early 1941. I should go and see exactly when they were fitted, but they surely weren't there at the start of the war. 3.) The M13/40 and M14/41 are the same in the game . Actually, in realy life the M14/41 had a more powerful engine of 145bhp instead of 125bhp. The Semovente M41 has the correct data though. 4.) The Macchi C.202 was not available in 1940 and in most of 1941. IIRC it went into action in late 1941 . 5.) Quite important. Please give the Semoventi da 75 their proper HC shells. They were used in moderate quantity and were used to destroy heavier allied tanks. 6.) The Macchi C.200 "Saetta" was armed only with 2 x 12,7mm MG. and not with additional 2 x 8mm guns. And IIRC, the Fiat CR42 used often 2 x 100kg bombs, not a single 550 lb bomb. 7.) Helmets! Pith helmets were used at the start of the campaign and already in 1941 most of the Infantry was using the normal Italian helmet. They could be left to the Bersaglieri only as most of them used this kind of helmet. If any other Italian could help me out here, it would be great. That's all for now. Ciao,

The "Molotov Cocktail" First you drink the liquid, then you use the bottle in an efficient way. Then, all these trucks with a cannon on them, like the Lancia 3RO with a 90mm cannon mounted on top. And all the French tanks and tankettes transformed by the Germans in anti-tank platforms, artilleries etc.

The M11 sucked, but you can't beat the mighty L.3. I mean... what the hell did our engeneers have in their minds? It sucked beyond suck. Oh well. Aries, I've read that the Pz3 could be produced under license, it would have helped a lot. Fiat really screwed everything. The same thing happened when the Reggiane 2000 and 2001 appeared. They were good fighters, superior to Fiats (but not to Macchis) but they were not produced in big quantities. And regarding the Cr.42: even our pilots preferred a biplane with an open cockpit over a monoplane (G.50 or C.200) because they considered it more agile and maneuverable! :eek: :confused: They didn't even consider speed, armament, etc. This speaks volumes about our Regia Aeronautica's philosophy in fighting the next war.

? Actually there weren't M11/39 in the Greek front AFAIK. IIRC there was a Battalion of "M" tanks, but they were M13/40, armed with a 47mm in a rotating turret. All the actions of this unit are described in the book "Il Ponte di Klisura" (The Bridge of Klisura)by Lt. Panetta, and I've never ever read anything like that. This unit fought quite well, it went almost destroyed in the attack against the Bridge of Klisura and against the "Hill 731" in March 1941. Our tanks were so bad I even could believe in what is said. Another strange thing is that the author doesn't mention where this encounter happened; not a name of a mountain, city, pass. "...Although not as well-equipped as the modern, mechanized Italian army..." :eek: :eek: :eek: [ November 17, 2003, 02:10 PM: Message edited by: Newbtler ]

Heh,yeah they really do look weird, but I like them. Here's the other kind of "helmet" used before WW2. Taken from: http://www.bersaglieri.net I just hope we can get them in CMAK, they could make them 2d, like bushes are already in CMBB.

Heh,yeah they really do look weird, but I like them. Here's the other kind of "helmet" used before WW2. Taken from: http://www.bersaglieri.net I just hope we can get them in CMAK, they could make them 2d, like bushes are already in CMBB.

Bump... Bersaglieri helmets. Taken from: http://www.arditi43.com

Bump... Bersaglieri helmets. Taken from: http://www.arditi43.com

I just think that all these pre-war civilian or para-military training was of little use in a modern war. Here in Italy, there were many Youth organizations (like the "Balilla" guys, "Avanguardisti" etc) who trained many thousands of children and teen-agers with physical excercises, map-reading , firing with small rifles. Was this really useful in the war? I think it wasn't. Logistics, weapons, feeding support, fanatism and extensive military training were the keys to succeed on a modern battlefield. I still think that CM is great as it is now, just because we can change every units in the editor, and make them what these particular units were in reality. We can make a unit fit or unfit, veteran or green, add morale or stealth or combat modifier in every platoon or company. Every army in the world had good and bad soldiers and commanders, there were crack and green troops and the thing is that we can simulate this in CM. For example: in the Italian army there were units that were very tough and others that were fragile and were not very useful. Most of these units were made of the same soldiers (and same guys from North or South of Italy), had the same training and weapons as the other units, but somehow they behaved differently. I just think that it's unjustified to create a default characteristic for every nation, even because we can still change our troops in the game, so we can represent what happened in reality. [ October 07, 2003, 04:38 AM: Message edited by: Newbtler ]

Bravo. You understood. In Berlichtingen’s excellent last post he pointed out that region and date are very important. I missed that. When I said I want lowered moral for Italians in CMAK (please note, it’s CMAK, not CMBB, nor any other CM), I meant it for exactly for 1940 and, of course, in Sicily 1943. But, it’s ok. I give up. Obviously this subject offends too many people. --- Oh my.... again... I still say that there is a difference between MORALE and DELAYED COMMAND. Not every units had bad morale in 1940 and in 1943. It seems like you still haven't read my posts though. I quit here. Ciao e buonanotte. [ October 04, 2003, 04:55 AM: Message edited by: Newbtler ]

I still don't get it, I'm sorry, maybe I'm a thick headed guy. What I'm trying to say (and others before me) is that what you say isn't true in the whole: I've just finished reading a nice book called "Battaglione Aosta 1942: Destinazione Montenegro" (Aosta Btn, 1942: Destination Montenegro) which is about a personal diary of an Alpino fighting against ex-Yugo Partisans (Tito's partisans mostly). There are accounts where the author says that normal Infantry Div. like the "Murge" were horrible, since they weren't trained enough and they didn't fight very well, but his unit and his division was formed by veterans who were always called to fill the gaps opened by the enemy. All this happened in the same period and in the same campaign, so what you say is impossible to do in my opinion. There were bad and good formations, and that's the greatness of Combat Mission: we can EDIT them in the editor, we can have green or veteran units in the same period just like in reality (-and just like in any nations I guess-). Do you think that Italian soldiers didn't die in WW2? Around 350.000 IIRC died during the war. Did you mind thinking that I could be offended by your "surrender" jokes, just because I could have had some relative who died in that war? I could get the joke, ok, but we're not talking about joking like friends usually do here, we're joking about another guy's nation, their relatives, and this is really immature. There are some who are not offended, some who are. Why then say it? There are tons of other real humorous thing to say and to see in this world, this is just kinda stupid and immature. You can't lower that command delay of the Russians, (because they were imprepared for the war, and I could somehow accept that for the Italians in 1940) but you can raise their morale, and get them unweakened. I don't think so, see above and the other posts in this thread. There is a difference between command delay and quality of the troops in the field. [ October 03, 2003, 03:31 AM: Message edited by: Newbtler ]

Gamax, you pretend to be a joking man, an hilarious man but then you get offended by just a joke I made (and not about you, mind it). The "throwing up" thing was a joke, sorry I didn't post the " ", but I thought you could get it. If I would now say that I think that ALL Serbs, Croats, Cetniks, Ustascia etc should get in the next CM game (but they won't be there unfortunately) a "Kill all the prisoners, cut their throats and amputate them" order, would you be offended? Nooo... No way man, I'm 100% sure you are a guy with a sense of humour and you would get it as a joke. Understand? I really don't want to start a fight with you Gamax, it's pointless and useless in the end. What I REALLY like in the Combat Mission series is the big options we can have playing it. This is almost the first game ever to let you decide and create a scenario with your options, like a group of Russian "veterans" against "green" Germans in 1941. You can raise or lower their morale, get them weakened or not, etc etc. The Soviet delay command is just that: in the first years of the war they take more time to plan artillery etc, but the fighting infantry fires the exactly same number of rounds as the enemy and they fight as any other humans. They're not DUMB. I remember playing the Eastern/Western Front games, and it was just plain frustrating that I couldn't modify my groups of soldiers. THIS is the real war-game. [ October 02, 2003, 03:56 AM: Message edited by: Newbtler ]

Oh no please... Another one of these guys like Gamax, and I'm gonna throw up. ( just preparing a big cup near my computer for the future...) As have been said by other guys vastly more knowledgable than me, every soldiers of the known civilized world have surrendered in different wars and in different circumstances. And Gamax, if you are from one of these countries of semi-God-like humans that never surrendered , just tell us, it would be great to know that there REALLY are uber-mensch out there. thanks [ October 01, 2003, 04:59 PM: Message edited by: Newbtler ]

Ciao Amedeo, I agree with that.

Ciao Amedeo, I agree with that.

I'd like to see a Malta invasion scenario too, it would be great to see Folgore and Ramcke's paras fighting in that island. My grandfather's Inf. Division ("Superga") had to land there by planes, but instead it was sent in Tunisia. Then, I'd like some battles in Eastern Africa or some unknown small scale battles, commandos and the like, especially early-war battles. Armoured Div. "Ariete" and CC.NN. at Bir-El-Gobi or Giarabub garrison fighting against all odds. Well, I just think that many scenarios will be created afterward, as there are so many references and battle maps of that campaign. Romolo, è la prima volta che vedo un Romano qui sul Forum! Ciao!

Hello, actually I think there really aren't that many books written in English, but there are quite a few in Italian. These are some of the ones in my small collection. For first-person accounts, there are the excellent series: "C'ero anch'io" (I was there too). I have the Albanian-Greek front one, but there are others focusing on the North African and Russian campaigns. These books contains a lot of informations, there are many accounts of veterans, some of them are very extensive and informative. The author is Giulio Bedeschi, edited by Mursia. Visit http://www.mursia.com "Il Ponte di Klisura" - I carristi Italiani in Albania:1940-1941(The Bridge of Klisura - Italian tankers in Albania) is a well written account of an M13/40 captain in the Greek campaign and his unit, with some pictures and good battle reports. Written by Rinaldo Panetta, edited by Mursia (1975) There is the small "Quota Albania" (Hill Albania), by Mario Rigoni Stern (author of the excellent "The Sergent in the Snow"), edited by Einaudi, 1971). This book is about his experience in that campaign. "I cavalieri del fango" (The knights of Mud), written by Vittorio Luoni is a very good book, with some great pictures of in-combat action taken especially in Russia. The book is about the author's experiences in the French,Greek and Russian campaigns as an Officer. Edited by "Ermanno Albertelli Editore" "Tutti vivi all'assalto" (All alive at the assault) is a rather big book about the tragic retreat of the Italian Army in Russia. The author is Alfio Caruso, edited by Longanesi, 2003 (www.longanesi.it) "Folgore!...E si moriva - diario di un paracadutista" (Folgore! And there was death - diary of a para), edited by Mursia. Great book, written by a para during the El-Alamein battle. "Batterie Semoventi alzo zero" by Davide Beretta (Self-propelled Artillery battery, zero in) edited by Mursia too, a good account of a Semovente da 75/18 battery written by his com mander during the El-Alamein battle. "L'Alleato" by Andrea Innocenzi (The Allied)edited by Madeia, decent book written by an artillery officer , commander of a 105/28 unit, during the early battles in the desert. Very good photographs and some maps. There are many others, and you can see some of them on the URLs below. If you go to the Mursia homepage, and click on "Testimonianze" you can see some good books on the Second world war. A great supplier of military books is the "Libreria Militare" (Military Library). Their URL is: http://www.libreriamilitare.com

Fernando, that's a very ineresting site. To tell you the truth, I'm not so much informed about his bio, I just refer to what they taught me in schools. I did some small researches, and most of them say that he was born in Genova. In the most important Italian encyclopedia circa his real place of birth, it is written: "...The main biographical sources are from diaries, anotation autographed and some books, and most importantly from the works of Don Fernando Colombo and of B. La Casas, rich of informations, some of them though are interpolated. Documents found in the Archives of Genova and regarding even his relatives, his testament and other less known works explicitly attest the Genovese origin of the navigator..." (then there is a collection of works on his life). In the initial part I found that he was in Portugal and in Madera in 1476-1478, then he went in Genoa for the last time, then again he left for Lisboa (1479). He had a strong relationship with the cosmographo (spelling? cosmograph maybe?) Toscanelli, considered by many as the real character of the voyage. When they exhumed his remains IIRC there were some of his relatives, it would be interesting to know what they think about their descendancy. I guess that he never wrote in Italian (or maybe Genoese dialect or even "vulgare" and language, as the official Italian language wasn't spoken in the XV and XVI centuries) since he was living in Spain and Portugal, and he hadn't a reason to do so. The site you posted here is very interesting though... I found some interesting sites: http://gosouthamerica.about.com/library/blColon.htm http://www.meriden.com/stjoseph/colombo.htm http://galileo.imss.firenze.it/milleanni/cronologia/biografie/colombo.html (in Italian) http://www.ilmonferrato.info/personaggi/colombo/colombo1.htm (Italian. This is a very interesting page, as it say that maybe he was born in Cuccaro.There is a genealogy of his family and some other interesting informations. Use babelfish to translate...) [ June 09, 2003, 03:25 AM: Message edited by: Newbtler ]

Didn't note that Steiner14 is using the same signature... IIRC, the true line was something about the "Bersaglieri" , not the normal infantrymen, but I'm not totally sure about it.