Liam

Interesting Debates on the Subject of World War II. I also like the reference to historial warfare. It hasn't changed in some ways. American soldiers have a great advantage over their counterparts in all Theatres in The MidEast. I brought up my points from a game that I had played. Very much a Napoleonic Warfare simulator by the late 1700s. We tend to boom our games to began that in the early 1700s.. in my particular game it was a Random Game, with Random Civs, but we had the same end result as history. 300 thousand men placed well in the right terrain were quite dangerous. If a Coalition Army placed poorly of 2 or 3 Xs that number attempts to manuever to intercept it has to deal with several factors. Arriving in a particular place at the same time! i.e. the Prussians and British at Waterloo. also the uncoordinated BEF and French in 1940... Take into account attrittion. Take into account their are two minds controlling two large armies, both that can beat by a superior leader so both will attempt to jump the foe together at the same time, both will have their own ideas. Flawed if they are not Perfect in execution on how, where, and in what way to do this... I actually taught my foes Warfare 101 by destroying 2 million French and British Troops, forcing twice that number probably to surrender. Rallying faster, reorganizing, and executing superb strategics in good terrain. No Laziness, very Energetic and very Aggressive! SC2 is a bit of the same on a Strategic Level... You can make a smaller force properly placed in good terrain and in proper arrangement a deadly force. However, you sometimes lose sight of the bigger picture... One or two errors in SC2 can cost you a front even with a Greater Force, even on a Grand Strategic Level. You must be deployed Properly, you must place the right troops in the right place, and assign the right leaders to the right Theatres.. It's what makes certian players better than others... Also the mechanics of warfare in it You see how morale, tactics and technology can influence an army. Especially a General. The men mentioned by Retributar are shining examples, both for their Nations and their Armies. Granted, looking down on 100,000 Barbarians with 10,000 men is a bit disheartening, it has a great Fright to it. Though Men who have served a Great General and Slaughtered such armies repeatedly will not scare so easy... History shows that WW1, Germany did conquor Russia. Though more intelligently and against a less determined foe than WW2 Soviet Union. Seems to me the Soviets employed a strategy of never giving up, reorganizing constantly, pushing on every card they had available. Knew they couldn't fight the Germans head on...They learned before their resources were choked to death. The Germans were idealy suited to kill an army they could catch. Though on a Front as massive as the USSR it's not so simple... It is a complex game of cat and mouse. Though in the end the Germans were the mouse acting too much like the cat! Maybe they didn't realize this, I like the idea I have heard of a German Retreat from USSR, preserving their units for combat inside of Eastern Europe. Where they'd of had more support, Supply and strength... P.S. As in our SC Games when you have the Stats, many guys on here post stats about WW2, books, documentaries, etc... they all do this... I have in most of my MP games a stats page, it's not always the country that produces the most MGs who wins. That much is true! There are many factors to a game and many more to life. [ October 15, 2006, 06:01 PM: Message edited by: Liam ]

Invest in Motors Higher supply moves better in mountains usually, so place an HQ and Corps near the border. You cannot usually take Iran if the Axis do not want you to have it easy... That depends on the force ratio between Axis And Allies in the Theatre If they have the Forces and you do not, leave it for the Axis Though if you believe him weak attack... Fact is Iran is secondary to Iraq... Once you cut off Iran, why bother with it? Only if it's easy and cheap to take

Those are isolated cases of seizing assets that could be used against the Allies.. The UK was pretty desperate to secure herself John, I'm certian she didn't want to hand over the Mediterreanan to the Axis and those ships were vital... The Vichy did throw their lot in so to speak, sounds as if Petain was attempting to retain as much of France as possible. In one way a Conspirator in another just one of self interest and self preservation. I see all that you say, there are justifications, though not so easily sold off on Capturing Major Capitols... In the end my formula stills stands, mini-nations shouldn't provide what Major Nations provide, it should be a seperate equation... I suppose it is an abstract morale system of Tactical-Strategic Position, gauging Morale by Capitols and Liberations... Sadly some Capitols are not in a defensible position! I can take England against most players faster than I can take Spain!!! With less losses if I gauge it right... Insightful posting, I do know that we will justify the means to an end. We always do, history was written... Just that we're not reliving exactly as so doesn't mean it wouldn't be rewritten going back. BUT my morale system needs to be employed, it's accuracy is better suited and solves the current Bug. P.S. Major Defeated, Liberated = Higher or Lower Morale Minor Defeated or Liberated = relative to their value, even fixed

Reflecting on the Great Battles in Russia, I just thought of it a moment. I miss them, today the SC2 games are a little slow. Russian strategy is usually to lay back dorment too long. They wait for the weary German forces to step out of supply then "whack!" That I suppose is history. The Russians ran a bombing raid on Berlin in the early days of Barbarossa, I heard of it on a Documentary. From an Island in the Baltic sea. Bombed Berlin, don't know if they hit their target.

Blashy, Hitler was a Gambler. Yes, usually against a player that is Bigger and Better than you are, a Gambler should lose. Most of the time! However his gambles paid off until 1942 and then Stalingrad evaporated the German Army and game over... Doesn't mean he couldn't have Gambled and won, just means he lost. The Allies Gambled, but the thing is they had more to throw away and they did until 1942 and turned the tide with their superior resources as you say by 1943 and that was "End Game." Kursk was a Gamble, an arrogant manuever. Hitler only believed in one way, inflexability made him a poor commander and that was a blunder beyond all blunders As far as Numbers meaning Final Victory it reminds me of a Europa Unversalis Game I have played recently. Jersey John mentions it also: My Matured Germania in Central Europe, Layed Dorment for 300 Years, building itself a tiny little Empire. By the 1700 by attempting to keep the Peace in Eastern Europe and for wanting to expand into France, lost it's Allies and was facing a 5 to 1 Disadvantage on all Fronts. It compensated with Great BlitzkriegLike Tactics. It stormed it's enemies, winning NUMEROUS victories. Though several Million soldiers vs my tiny force of 500 thousand is no competition.. You're right their might, that of Russia, France, England, Spain, Ottomans... They ruled out. My only ally was Milan in the end though I managed to defeat every single one of this Fellows 5 to 2 really I did it again and again, though their superior Navy and Numbers picked away at me. I lost my Scandanavian Territories.. In the end, Game over, I still didn't lose... I was still storming the Low Countries, and I forever changed the course of History... My Nation Was Never Unconditionally surrendered after 6 or 7 World Wars Relatively to history, A small well lead force, With Focused FirePower is as Powerful as a Massive ill prepared Force. 1 man can defeat 5 or in this case more like 7 or 8... if he fights smart, if he chooses his battleground, if he uses the right weapons and tactics... Military Victory and Winning Wars is not only about production my friend. Ultimately it's about who has the Winning Strategy and who Employs it to Utter Effectiveness. I have Found many many times, anyone can win with determination against someone who is a little lazy and undetermined

lol retri I know, tired

Agreed, propaganda is big. That is why I said Units under the German's and Russians should be effected less. What if the German's lost at Kursk? What was the official Announcement to the German public? I know news travels in the Forces... See that is a bit of a seperate affair, one officer speaks to another. I'm certian the Russians were as the Germans... Hush Hush, on the losses category! Even the British have sealed files to this day. The German's had some really sneaky Propaganda. If someone can remind me, some Canadians Commandos attempted a mini D-Day in '42 '43, failed so terribly. The German's took the photographs of the landing craft and equipment to make look as though D-Day had failed, am I wrong? Something the USA would do a bit more subtly... The UK press is notorious for scams, they love to unveil them. I'm certian they were untrustworthy! Before D-Day the Island was sealed off. Security, Intel, etc... is important... though Brits and Americans are Western Nations, free, Democracies... Their troops heard about surrendering nations and lossed battles. They got exact figures pretty much, when a ship was sunk, when something dreadful happened. Word travelled freely amongst the ranks as well... In contrast, I'm certian the Proffesional German Army shared. I'm also pretty sure the Russians shared certian things. I'm not even sure why morale isn't tied into Cities, Battles, and other such objectives... Those were more paramount that Capitol Captures. I suppose the easiest to program. Though it should be made proper and balanced to each event and each accomplishment. If conqouring the UK gave the Germans a 100% Morale increase for 10 tens, that would make the british weary of giving up the Island for an exchange for Russian victory. Change the dynamics of the game. Positively in my opinion. More historical... Conquoring Vichy Algeria, Tunisia and Syria gives you this effect now, which really wouldn't have taken more than 50,000 German soldiers The former objective, probably 500,000 German Soldiers and half that to garrison

Exactly my point! The Allies SHOULD not get morale boosts for conquoring Independant Democracies that reduce the Readiness of nations such the USA. Nations like Tunisia or Syria, Portugal, Denmark, etc... Are to insignificant on top of it to really be a meaningful increase to Morale to the Axis. Also the Axis should pay for invading Allies. Spain would be a VERY big morale hit in the negative for the Germans. They supplied them many resources during the Civil War there and to conquor them for no apparent reason rather then to reach a Political Aim would not make the troops feel confidant. It would make them feel their leader was wreckless... So it wouldn't increase morale, it may not decrease it. If the Allies say Knock out Ireland, Portugal, or Switzerland in any sort of gamey move... It may not hurt their morale, but it definitely wouldn't increase it. Same for nations like Norway, or even Sweden...Finland... Which people use now to gain morale and use for it's resources! Now the Russians on the other hand, this is a different story. The German and Russian Governments being closed off to the outside world, being private..... Dark in their dealings in other words, would be hit as I said bit less. The American, French and British Governments are Outspoken and would suffer due to their loud free speech... All in all, If the American's say Liberate France this would be a Huge Morale boost, though Denmark, minorly... I'd say a Table of the following to be something to study and use: Nation Morale Value Denmark, Conquored by Axis-USSR: +%5 Denmark, Liberated by Allies: +%7.5 Denmark, Conquored by Allies: -%5 Tunisia: Conquored by any nation +0% Liberated by the Allies: +%2 Ireland conquored by Allies -%7.5 Liberated by Axis +%2 France Conquored by Axis +25% Liberated by Allies +25% See the differentials? See the importance of Key Nations.... That is how it was historically. I do not see why my men are in the German Army are as happy about France as they are about Tunisia? Do you?

SeaMonkey, my thoughts on HC, is that usually his patches come quickly. I'm guessing we'll see 1.5 in about 2 to 4 weeks... I just don't know, though I'd like to hear if the 1.4s are upgradeable. Does it matter to you either way? How quickly do your games progress?

Granted War Weariness is an issue Nationally. My thoughts drifted more to the direct impact upon the Fighting Units in Strategic Command 2. Each time they liberate or conquor a Neutral, effects are the same. Axis get the same Morale boost that an Allied nation will recieve for conquoring say Ireland. What unit in the field would care if Ireland was conquored? By Western Standpoints, this might be a morale decreasing event. I think it is jaded now the system of Morale increase or decrease by certian actions and certian minors. Certianly Russians would be more enticed by conqouring Finland. Also Germany would be for conquoring Minors. Though the West would benefit more from liberating... The system needs to be re-examined. Also the original thought I had still stands.. Above it is true, the Morale system of certian nations is unique and dependant upon their Government and People.

Don't you think that Axis & Russian Morale should be seperate from the Free Western Democracies? In Germany you had the Propaganda Ministry that was run more like a one-sided we've got this in the bag type of war. In The Soviet Sector, I won't even go there. Most of their soldiers were probably illiterate, and didn't have radios! Honestly, neither Nation was Honest with their people or Soldiers. I think the effects of Morale in the Neutral department should be modified for these nations. The Penalty should be harder hit upon the West. Also since these were oppressive regimes, including Spain...... The West should get a bonus for the Victories it achieves.

Have you ever actually encountered the Royal Navy doing this?

You're absolutely right AAR is uberDeadly to Bombers. I do not bother to buy a German bomber anymore, you will die trying... Of course I never seem to achieve freebie AAR tech like most, I never get past 1, but 3 or 4, WHOA, excellent defense. You want to play a PBEM, which side? Are you in Panzerliga?

HC, we're all happy to hear that you've come up with some ideas with reducing prices for these units that do not get employed. It may not mean they're employed still. You're right about Paras being secret OPs. Amphibious OPs were also secret, and Paras usually went on the same coin. The cost reduction may give a player with excess MPPs the desire to use at least Rockets, the downfall of Rockets as I've used them is they're not much different than Fighters, except they fire in any weather and they're a WHOLE seperate TECH to research No advantage to that. I'd also purpose that you decrease the cost to research them to say 75 Also rockets will be killed by 3 experienced Fighters or hampered from operating. Rockets are concealed weapons. Being that they're really just artillery, they should be mobile from Trains and from Trucks. Plus give Bombers an advantage to striking Rockets Historically it would take them to destroy their bunkers. As Russians will not build Bombers, Allies will.. Historically the Germans were known to Bury them and the Allies invented new and interesting methods of destroying these bunkers. All that is very involved but you get it, ideas Lastly, before I go, I love the idea of hiding Engineers, they suffer greatly being picked off like HQs with precision airstrikes. They're not practical at the level of Airpower and Long Range employed in SC2. It's rare a player will bother to station 2 fighters, perhaps 3 to defend a unit fortifying..and some Majors, simply cannot nor would expend the resources to do so. I like your idea, it makes them cheaper, and semi-effective. The next step would be to allow them to fortify adjacent hexes up to a certian range, so they can do it in a sector and not be exposed to the enemy. Not really a bad idea aye? If possible of course!

I think to have Air turned only into a readiness and morale reducing weapon, is one thing. Air is supposed to include DiveBombers, like the faked Stuka, Sturmovik, or even the converted Tank Killing Hurricane. The Last the Hurricane was noted by men in Normandy. I recall a Tanker saying we passed dozens of Burnt and charcoaled Tigers in our Shermans and breathed a sigh of relief we wouldn't have to fight them. So did Air kill Ground? Much of the time it didn't... though in cases it actually did, just much less than SC2 simulates. The fact of strength point losses I think is supposed to be mutually reflect the loss in Morale and Strength the latter translating into effective fighting strength rather than actual equipment. Seeing that you can rebuild a unit, it actually does! At a reduced cost Air shouldn't be as powerful as it is, granted! 4 strength points or 5 knocked off with an airstrike? Hmmm... By the time Barbarossa begins and by the time I'm outside Leningrad or Moscow this doesn't present much of a challenge to me taking those cities! The worse aspect is the supply to land units, which doesn't plague air. Air didn't cover so much territory in Russia Plus The Russian Airforce is way too pathetic for words and should possess an evolving AirForce

DH! Come back! We need you oh and Rambo is tootin' his own horn. There are about 5-6 good players in SC2 who play regular PBEM, 3 or 4 who play IP. I'm looking for more Americans or Early Morning Germans Well the difference is that in SC 1 you stuck as 3rd best player of the world ;)whilst in SC 2 you assume to be No 2. So eihter you increased your skills or one player is missing. But anyway the light is shining brighter for you now. :cool: </font>

I have mentioned this already in various threads. If rockets were cheaper, we'd buy them. Axis never buy an Engineer, because they really can't do much, defense is not the major power of SC2, offense rules and is favored.. Engineers being so vulnerable should be cheaper, perhaps corps price if they're so destructable as they're sitting targets. Several Air units with 2-3 Bars can kill that engineer of what over 300 mpps? Is it really worth buying it and placing in a theatre like France? Rockets being cheaper, would help. See Rockets cannot move then attack! Russians had mobile Rocket launchers, Katusha? Why not have mobile rockets, the Allies had them on ships, in the air and though I'm not sure the West ever had them mobile, I'm pretty sure the Germans did. These may not have been V-1s or V-2s but regardless! The point is that the biggest impact of rockets with their limited range is they're too vulnerable to deploy on the frontlines and rarely see combat. In a game on average 2 rockets will be fired several times, meanwhile an air unit will do 100 operations! See the point? They should be cheaper if they're not tweaked to be more versatile.. That way you actually apply them to a real game. Unless you're modding, they do not have any real impact on SC2 and will not ever be used by a player who wishes to win. I use my rockets as Garrison units as the USSR and I sell my chits in them for the Germans. I'd love a mobile Rocket that could travel 2 or 3 hexes then reign down Terror on a Unit form a distance. it'd be a deadly weapon! P.S. how long does it take deploy a V-1 V-2? A week? A game turn? Mobility wouldn't be bad or unrealistic?

Aha! 2 out of the last 3 matches Liam You surrendered before Ike landed on your Axis shores, O'Connor was all that was needed in Syria and my current Allies have you in the bag, we're just waiting for the PBEM turn Master Wendo you're outclassed by the my knowledge of the Scripts You may have a kewl light sabre battle but you cannot make the walls come down as I do upon you. Yes Master Yoda's presence has taught me well and you may have a rematch, I'll mail you an Axis turn to go with our current Allied game tonight, if you wish to continue that fruitless battle. if you survive as I did till 1945 vs 15 level4 Russian tanks!

I give Rambo this much, he doesn't understand how to bend the system politically to his favor, YET! but he is a very clever man on overdoing areas of tech and always comes in with a Monster Navy. The Americans and Russians were equipped. He's right I was a snail in finishing the job. I got a little complacent, With the Russians and with the Americans. His British and American Armies had one shot, their Air was equipped to do the job, but the Land Units had to have IW3 and AntiTank2 ceiled the deal. That area is was laggy... But I'm sure he had good IT and good Production... that combined was a Deadly combo, as I know Rambo, he believes in the Assembly Line, 1944 was the Deathnell of the Axis. They were outproducing the Allies in 1942 and outkilling them in 1943 but by 1944 it didn't matter. A Maxed out Allied TaskForce of that size in my achilles heal was perfect. He had all my undefended regions in his pocket. I couldn't cover every city and every possible route of attack. Allies must be stopped, operating back was not in my plan. Though I was foolish in Russia, I moved North then South. Should've committed to destroying Rostov or cutting of ArchAngel imports. The Caucasus or Moscow, Moscow isn't really valuable, just pretty Damned bloody Patton and his attrittion War in the West. Damned those Communists. Death toll in the end is something like this: 60 Dead Ruskies 40 Dead Germans 30-35 Dead Allies

As far as the original posting, Spain can be bought, if the UK counters, all the better for the Axis. It is an expensive counter for the UK, and they cannot defend both the Home Island and North Africa, so giving one is a requirement against a competent Axis Player. It's hard to get Spain if all 5 chits of the UK are in, in time. Plus Italy gives a slight chance of Spain joining regardless. Though the UK is now a broke power, she will really have no other diplomatic options, at least in the early game. As far as historically. Franco didn't seemed very interested in putting his lot in with Hitler. I mirror JJ's opinion here, more would needed to be done than simple things to convince Franco to join. A country also that had a long bitter civil war should have Partisans

Indeed Master Rambo, knowledge of the scripts has done me well, nearing a dozen victories over you lesser Jedi, bow before your new Master! Rambo, hiding from Threats Abroad and from the SC2 Scriptinator

Good Post JollyGuy, I'm your opponent in SC2 1.2 PBEM. We're yet to be finished, as you can see my knowledge of the scripts gave me a signficant edge. I endorse a random scriptinator. I'm not sure the logistics, perhaps why it will not be done. If nothing else, a random script released every week or two you apply to your game, noone can view on Programmer password

Well, so much for the Atlantic Wall. I suppose it will give some room for fortifying. AntiAir research is primarily for Heavy Bombers. Forts cannot be upgraded either. Were 88s and field guns equipped to kill Air? Fighters looking for supremacy in air-to-air, now. Though a mile of flak can be a Wall that fighters themselves cannot penetrate. I wouldn't mind to see AntiAir being AntiFighter, since we throw in "some" strategic power to the Fighter and at 5 bars, my Lord it is a capable one! P.S. what of upgraded Forts with AntiAir? Also giving ones the ability to return fire on Ships? Perhaps weak though people will not bombard a Fortifying Unit with a 2 strength BB with the possability of losing it, Paratroopers aren't very strong in combined effort with Amphibious attacks because a fort on the coast is not practical unless against a meek foe. Why not place an added value to reinforce our coastlines? Historically a foe would not destroy a fortifying unit because they'd be destroyed in the attempt, focused FirePower in SC2 is unique and doesn't allow this sort of defensive actions. You will find that if you keep Engineers you'll need a value for them to fortify from a hex where 10 BBs cannot fire on them. Trust me on this, you put a Engineer in Normandy I will kill it every time as British if it's near the Coast..

I will only add this much, let Rambo do the rest. I should've put the Luftwaffe on call in the West because it was full strength and supply, in the East I waited for Supply which was being hindered by Partisans and a Russian counterattack to get to full, I knew the Reds were weak, I was however misplaced and weak myself. I could've easily done away with the Western Allies any time before Paris, there was no strategic power to the Axis forces in the Air. No way of cutting of Allied Supply. The Western Front is a demanding front with Vichy Mountains Rostov was left in Red hands even with an attack on Stalingrad. Foolish as this would've been a great supply Depot and a good launching ground into the Caucasus, cutting up Russian reinforcements.

Agreed Yoda should've passed his satisfactory light sabre over this creation. We'd of done away with several months of waiting