Desert Dave

JJ, Then - and tell me if I am mistaken, but what you want is to have the SAME schematic as in SC-1, where the Air Fleet has three-fold abilities. 1) As Fighter and Interceptor. 2) As TAC or ground support unit. 3) As Naval Bomber. Leaving us with, the SAME as what we had before, IE, the "Stategic Bomber," With, essentially, ONE capability. Attacking resources. So the Air Fleet should therefore COST a lot more, since it is designated for more functions? Would we not then have the same "super Air unit" as before? That dominating Queen of the battle-board? Would very many then complain! that the Air Fleet is just too all-powerful... once again? One thing that DIVIDING the capabilities would do is... not only make it more likely that the Bomber would be bought and used, But also PREVENT research gains for only the ONE type of unit... allowing domination of the air wars. IF you are forunate in that research category. If you have functions divided between 2 units, then it is much more likely that the GP will achieve gains in one or the other, Which in turn makes for a more flexible and variable game. So. I ask this? IF the range factor for Bombers could be reduced against NAVAL targets, but remain the same for long-range bombardment of resources, would you feel the same way about it?

OM, [... cool, I got relaxed just saying that mantra) Well, it should be higher for the NAVAL bombers but NOT for the Air Fleets. Which aren't designed or indoctrinated to attack ships or subs. Having equal - 2 VS 2 for AF vs Ships WOULD indeed make of it an un-even encounter, a kind of... "desperation sortie" and that's the whole idea. Requires the GP (... IE, "game player") to use the units that ARE meant to attack the ships. The Carriers and the dive/torpedo bombers, as now listed and contained WITHIN the category of plain old "bombers." Now, where are YOUR ratings, all other things being equal? And, we don't need EXACTITUDE... that's for them Cats that land craft on other planets. And, cost will be appropriate as to job performance, IE, we are more EQUALLY dividing the responsibilities in SC-2 (... I did mention that BOTH of these units would cost less than before) INSTEAD of having the Air Fleet do EVERYTHING, which IMHO is a better way to go. :cool: [ December 11, 2005, 05:26 AM: Message edited by: Desert Dave ]

JdF2, It might, but it's not what we got. We have: 1) Air Fleets (... which includes TAC) 2) Bombers (... which includes Strat AND Naval, dive or torpedo) So? What ratings would you give? Here, I'll reprint the categories __________________________________ a) SA= Soft Attack TA= Tank Attack (... these 2 comprising the TAC component) c) NA= Naval Attack d) RA= Strategic Attack e) CA= Carrier Attack f) UA= Sub Attack ______________________ And, Bill's earlier numbers, IE, what it is as of now: ______________________ SC2 SA TA NA RA CA UA Air Fleet 2 2 2 1 2 2 Bombers 1 1 4 4 4 4 Carrier 1 1 4 1 4 4 __________________________________ OK, we only have FOUR entries so far (... well, 3.379572, counting SM, BUT I'm pretty sure he'll GET there! LOL! JK! SM! JK! Great analysis!) Speaking of which... where are ALL the others? Wagner! Get in here! You know these sorts of things, AND have benefit of working the numbers in that other WW-2 GS game! Bill 101, Waltero, Zapp, Liam AND! ANYBODY else I didn't yet mention! Let's have yer take on this, see, you can't have a proper AVERAGE kind of consensus from the forum unless there are, oh, AT LEAST a quorum of 9 or 10 inputs. Get the cobwebs out, let's hear 'em!

Hey JJ, Forgot to mention... let Ethan know That one of my ol' Alma Maters, U of NM Is playing Maryland For the national title in men's college soccer. Tomorrow, Sunday @ 2:00 PM EST on ESPN2.

CC, Sure, I'll make things up, haven't you noticed after almost 4 years? LOL! **RE: post over on other, less competitive forum: Well, IMHO, you have a fine and unique writing style that might well be called... YOU are making thangs up, as well! (... I grew up, mostly down South; used to frequent them far out places down along the Bayou or deep in the dank dark banjo-bangin' woods of Alabam and would rock & roll out in deep sea-green grasses in old Kentucky home, as well, so that likely is what yer a'hearin here & there)

SM, Yes, and yes. Be sure to stick in yer proposed ratings for AF's and Bombers. What I'll do is add 'em all up after 3 or 4 days and arrive at an average, And compare that to what now exists. See how that computes.

Valid rationales all around JJ. Anyone else? SM, CT, Lars, CC, EP, rambo, Kuni, Terif? See, the REASON I propose this hypothetical modification, Is BECAUSE very many, MANY members Just did NOT like how POWERFUL!! The Air Fleets used to be. **PROVISO: Naturally, we all recognize that Hubert will have final say, and it's most probably going to remain AS IS, But, here is YOUR chance to give an opinion on the coming SC-2 air wars. What say?

JJ, Let's play hypothetical. Let's say you are modifying your own treasured copy of SC-2. :cool: OK, now what would YOUR ratings be? Keep in mind: 1) The range of attack values is recommended to be 1 to 4, so to... prevent TOO MASSIVE casualties with any one encounter. Keeps the ships and planes in the game a little longer. 2) And, let's assume the CA's and BB's have an Air and Bomber defense value of "2." 3) Use Bill's accurate statement of current ratings as mentioned in above post: a) SA= Soft Attack TA= Tank Attack (... these 2 comprising the TAC component) c) NA= Naval Attack d) RA= Strategic Attack e) CA= Carrier Attack f) UA= Sub Attack Now, WHAT ratings would you assign to each of the AF's and Bombers and CV's? Anyone else can insert their several cents worth WRT to this aspect, as well. Just to get an idea of what the informed and interested members would suppose are THE IDEAL air campaigns, on land or by sea.

Absolutely, JJ, couldn't agree more. Nothing is set in stone. Who knows? What might be tweaked by the time Of initial release, or, even, After. :cool: All I was saying, essentially, is that we Are now dividing air capabilities Between two units, Instead of having MOST of the attack factors With ONLY, or mostly the Air Fleets. I easily recall the tremendous number Of COMPLAINTS!! That the AF was just too all-powerful in SC-1. Here, They are no longer the "Queen" Of the battle-field, rather, perhaps, A Knight? ______________________________ **(... off topic, so who don't care for that can SKIP this next bit) [... BTW, tell Ethan for me that was a great story! The Garden state of Good & Evil! Or, Tammy and the bewitched batchelor! LOL! Also, my congrats for making the HS soccer team! My son chose soccer also, no matter! My immense efforts to interest him in baseball... well, it actually ain't NO damn good anymore, @ Major League level, eh? Now! Tejada says he ain't for the Birds no more, he's unhappy, misunderstood, not appreciated! At 12 million a year! He don't LIKE losing! Wants, DEMANDS to get traded to a contender, well, may happen... he's got an Agent that could steal the pony off yer Polo shirt!]

SM, Merely a minor one that didn't interfere with game play. And that was fixed By the Master Mage - lickety-split! Sure, she purred along like some high desert, Rough-coat mountain Cat Belly full of flesh & bone Of (... not QUITE as high climbing) mountain goat. Tho, That slant-eye Cat could NEVER have caught THIS sort of goat, no! Not in its feral-most feline dreams! Whether it be - high narrow trails or Them - Go! for Glory roads, down home Clocked so fine! Those tri-carbs like the 7 Sea tides, So's they would rip-flow and glow! EVEN... in tune to Each... phase of the Moon. :cool:

As do I, Edwin P. The "Strategic Bomber" Is no longer known by that name; instead, It is just plain old... "Bomber," And is listed as such in the game. The category is meant to include BOTH the high-flyers AND "naval bombers." One reason? Too many units clutter the board. We are playing it "chess-like," which IMHO Is unique and challenging and makes it VERY easy To find and place your units, so You won't have to Clickety-click, click through The massed, Over-whelming stacks until you find out What unit is where. IMHO, a great improvement. Early on, ideas were floated to have a separate Naval Bomber, or, even, Research in "naval air doctrine" Which would have allowed you to upgrade Your "naval bombing" capability for air fleets. Problem became evident - why do AF's have SO MUCH capability? Say, you have an AF near Kiev, attacking T-34's, Or dog-fighting with Yak escorts, and then? Next turn it suddenly becomes A "naval bombing unit?" Able to send out topedo bombers so To dive-bomb Red Cruisers in the Black Sea? :confused: Not so plausible. That it could do EVERYTHING. At the snap of the fingers. OK. So instead, we now are supposing that "Bombers" Have multiple roles to play. The AIR FLEETS are... Interceptors AND - TAC, or "ground-support" units. BOMBERS can be "strategic" or "naval." True that the range is slightly high, though, By 1942 and beyond, most Sea And/or ocean-going Countries Had naval bombers that could equal or better The range of the currently depicted "bomber." But most importantly, The Bombers and AF's each cost a little less, And NOW have more or less equal... value, In terms of cost-benefit ratio. So that Bombers will be purchased And used more often than was true With SC-1. You CAN, of course, modify your own game to suit Your personal preferences. IF you do, THEN you probably should raise Or lower the cost Of the unit that gets more, or less capability. Default game will have it as EP has mentioned, along with naval and carrier attack of "4." [ December 10, 2005, 05:55 AM: Message edited by: Desert Dave ]

Actually, EP, that strategem can be a pretty good stop-gap measure. :cool: I recently completed a full '39 campaign game, and this is what happened: The GErmans and Italians mustered enough forces to finally drive UK out of Egypt. (... not to worry, this is being tweaked so that it MIGHT happen that Axis can take all of Mid East, only it won't be quite so easy as it was) Anyway, Italy bought a Strat Bomber, and while FM Rommel and the DAK was fending off USA in Algeria and Tunisia, Italy used their tank unit and a couple Corps, commanded by Guzzoni, in order to take Iraq AND Iran. Well, they were THEN able to position their Regia Aeronautica Bomber in such a way (... having also gotten L-1 long-range) as to air-raid the two southern most Oil Wells in Russia. Each turn they would nail 'em, so that Russia constantly had two size ZERO resources. That's a loss of 60 MPP's! OK, the Reds should have researched AA, and upgraded the Oil so that the Bomber could be attacked with flak. (... also, the SB was being escorted by an experienced L-2 Italian Squadra 1 AF, and it easily deflected the lower rated AF that the Reds could then spare from the Eastern Front) Next time. So, the Strategic Bomber WILL play a much more comprehensive role in SC-2. It serves as a Naval Bomber, whereas the Air Fleet is not so effective attacking surface ships or subs. It reduces entrenchment levels. And, it doesn't cost as much as it used to. Do the research, and build it up to L-3, 4 or even 5 and you'll have a VERY potent weapon.

Kuni at 'is best Makin' weird noise when most folks Are just too awful FEAR-full To say much of much aloud. But, I gotta keep tellin' ya I guess, Immer is IN - the desert loon bin! Can't you keep that straight? :confused: He was NOT cut out for mixin' in With decent, law & norm-abiding folks! Not here, NOT anywhere. I see 'im now & again and he just Scribbles strange signs & symbols All over the well-padded walls. Anyway, yeah, some cool fly In them yester days. I'd agree with JJ, That Free French, Picasso-esque arabesque Spy VS Spy stuff was mind-blowing, To say the least! :cool:

Another great one! JJ, Needs to be stretched out a bit And stuck in that there book Of short stories yer gonna Hand carry over to The discerning Publisher in NY, NY! :cool: Yep, those were the days alright. Nothin' to worry yer fool head about Other than... the Red Menace, And the truly horrible fact Of the Yankees winning the AL pennant Every damn year! My club, the Indians - got it in the ear Over & over again! Every season it was, 1951 to 1958. Oh, just great! Once or twice - was NOT enough! What a bludgeoning! with-the-back Half-of-an-ax kind of world We gotta dither and live in! Which is WHY we need Games. And, more of them "Rowboat-awash-in-Sheepshead Bay With Dad and the glad-heart lad Laughing with the sail-on sailors" Sorts of stories, JJ! Thanks, you've just made my day. ___________________________________ Note: to the one or two who actually read the above post, LOL! I have voluntarily edited my comments. For one good & sufficient reason. That content SHOULD have been posted in General Forum, Where, I just don't go, never, and so, Now remains... my never-ending complaint About them Damn Yankees! Yeah, JJ, I do remember That magic year when "dem Bums" Whipped the pin-stripers In 7th game - Johnny Podres shut 'em out, Two to nothin' But... the Bronx Bombers'll probably win it again! Next year too! ______________________ Also wanted to add... A day is made TWICE! And, That's not merely some glad hand, It's old-fashioned - nice. Thanks kindly CC, Did you write that by any chance? If so, you are needing To visit that very same publisher As JJ goes see. Yep, you do. Only, to my way of thinkin' And pardon the intrusion, The ball rolls, goes by name of - Odd, Not... "money." And not begotten In enny pool hall or stolen From ol' Croesus... that's truely useless. Odd is, IMHO - a wonderful Manna, Like some molten gold honey. :cool: [ December 08, 2005, 10:45 AM: Message edited by: Desert Dave ]

Nah JJ, No - Behemoth of the Sea be I, nix nix. Just enjoying... yet another! Phfishing expedition. At's OK, Just so long as everybody! Can finally say, S**t, it's a red-tooth & black-claw World Out there, but, here... here Where one is for all, and All is for one, Oh, ain't we got FUN!

You just gotta admire. That's quite a... one - two, Kuni & CC... sucker-punch. Never saw it coming! LOLOL, cool. :cool: Well, It's been done before, And, like back when, I guess... I'll survive. But, yer right. Too much junk writing. From now on - only facts About the game. The rest is REALLY kinda lame.

Night, You don't even KNOW how long the delay Will be, do you? Could be shorter than you imagine. Thing is... YOU are going to have A game that you can play For the next... 20 years, At least. You will never ever again, Most likely, See so many great and innovative mods, Due to the heretofore UNPRECEDENTED Editor, And I DO mean - a one NEVER KNOWN before now, In yer whole life. So. Hang in. Hang out. Banish those momentary doubts.

LOL, thanx CC, ... I think? At's alright, I don't understand s**t Neither, but a'times the sound of it Relaxes me. :cool: Like getting Feng Shui dirty down. Or, re-arranging the little shiny rocks In my living-room tide-pool. It's that... wresting Order out of Chaos What matters. EACH person here, and I know most over All these years, Has their VERY OWN method of... going! With the flow. Cool Shades, babe. :cool: ____________________________ Seriously now. We very well should have a much better Game isofar as Strat Bombing goes. Not only because you can hit the resource Despite a unit atop, But also due to the atttack ratings Which CAN be edited, so, Should you want a bit more rack 'em smack Onto those chosen targets, You CAN bump up the bomb-ability a bit. :cool: Have no fear, nor enny Dread, This aspect of SC-2 Blitzkreig! WILL be as accomplished and accurate As other aspects of game-play. NO longer the high cost of doing Bombing business. Along with the new! AA-as-flak feature, Everyone should have a grand old time Trying to counter the bomb blows By upgrading Ports (... IE, making of those 2 ports in Western France some sort of hardened sub-pens) and Cities and Capitals And Oil Wells and Mines. Which ones? And when? As I say, even MORE fun to be had!

Ah gee, The damned DaDa World may soon devolve Into fast dwindling cinders of NADA, oh, Tomorrow at noon, And THIS is what we are in angst about? (... where is Gary Cooper then you NEED 'im? Or better! Princess Grace dancing - sans Blue notes or clothes! Under new winter Moon? :cool: ) "A silly and cute Dr Seuss?" LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL! Hey, you ken call me... Tom-Tom! (Tired old man, tripping over a Muse) Who... reaches behind the curtain, Feels all around For 'at old and mouldering trunk, Who... opens the lid, with dumb Clumsied fingers, Shoves aside the toads And s**t loads of junk, and! Finally finds, why... 'is stock reply! "Just havin' a little FUN over here, Boss, should you not mind?" Since - it be - a free & easy Association of... gee-whiz, Lookee See! Kind of folks, I mean. OK, back to the plan at hand. Strategic Bombing. Yep, it's gonna be much better, More cost-effective, I'd say, And, well, hell, just plain old FUN to play! O Happy Day! The Cat is - IN the Hat, Big Bird is - absurdly, atwirp! LOLOLOLOLOL!

Alack! He actually can't! Work it much further, no, neither Forward - nor back! The whole main-frame would rock And roll and totter and - collapse! And hard-drive would - without excuse, Simply refuse to centrifuge! The Biological AI-making creatures (... yep, we DO have ALL of the latest features!) Would up and eat the Petri Dish! And no less, Logic & proportion would deteriorate Into... merely, Theorised strings of Chaos! And, ah, no more, SC-2 would become - at the last, Not a physical FACT, and Not! a gamer's greatest wish, but A Will o' the Wisp Is... disappearing fast! :eek:

JJ, Yep, there surely is one in the game. Currently, it is only able to construct Fortifications. [... it is an Icon with two soldiers instead of 1 for Corps and 3 for Army; can be considered a place-holder also, in the event that the Modder wants to include some "special forces."] Bill had a fine suggestion recently. Allow the Engineer to act as a temporary port For supply purposes. This could be used to great effect During D-Day landings. Also, Once the forces are established ashore, Then help to dismantle any Fortress Europa Kind of bulwarks the GErmans might have built, With an EXTRA effect, IE, If they participate in an attack, Allow them to reduce entrenchment by 2, IE, They are using the flamethrowers And high explosives, etc. Earlier in the process I had suggested Two other uses for the Engineer: 1) It might build a SUPPLY DEPOT. This on-screen icon would take one turn to construct, last two turns and cost... ~ 50 to 100 MPP's. And it would then BOOST the supply of all units within range for the following 2 turns. It (... and the Engineer, during construction) would be vulnerable to air attack, should the enemy discover it by way of recon Ops. This would allow for all-out "summer offensives" and could also help to relieve the reduced supply state of units that are somewhat isolated, IE, have exceeded the normal range of a nearby HQ, City or Port. 2) The Engineer could build an Air Base. This might cost, say - 150 MPP's (... since it would be permanent unless and until over-run by the enemy) and would allow any Air Unit on or next to it to have a "bonus attack" on any turn. It might appear on the map as an icon with runways and maybe a control tower. Of course, this would "cluster" your air units within a confined area, thereby preventing wide-ranging Ops, but it could be yet another offensive boost during one of those planned "offensives." Though if you achieved sufficient long-range air, you could place Air Bases in a couple prime locations and cover a lot of territory. Now, NONE of these are approved by Hubert and therefore NOT coded as yet. They may never be; or, if enough people REALLY like some extra abilities for the Enginer unit, perhaps post-release, who knows? These are just some suggestions that Bill and I have made so that the Engineer might be more active and a sort of... "Jack of all Trades," eh? :cool:

Haven't done any of that **** for... going on 15 years now, thank the Stars. Yah, it's being HIGH on... Life, babe, Nothing more. Is needed. (... BTW again - you should do Travelogues. For money. A photo-journalist is what they call them. Do it, write it up, go to a Publisher, see what happens. Me? I sell an occasional poem to a mini mag and get five bucks and 2 free copies of their obscure rag, LOLOL)

Moon Enthused Mensa Imp Mensch, Could not have stated it better Had I tried. Well, Actually, I have tongue tied Tried, though, Sum sortsa slango lingo don't often do So good for many, or enny folks. That there Editor is going to make The ordinary Jake - a Wizard! And, BTW, Thanks. I'd offer forth for alla us Indian learnt idjits - a toast. Yep, go out in this vast backyard Here on sun dunned desert, What's got rattle-snake holes And Yucca stuck all over the place? And a huge funneling rain-made gulley Whereat Jack the Rabbit doth race so! To dis-materialize inna hip hop haste? And too This! Crazy horse skeleton skull Still with bit-brittle teeth exact intact! (... it's the realest church I'll see and attend to) Only... :eek: Just like Bobby D Over to Maggie's Farm - U know the one? With the psycho delicate twist wire? All along - the Watchtower? Hot Damn! and Cool as that through The looking-glass Door Man O bad alas, Mister Mojo! Can't summon Welling waters... nope, my pump don't work, Cuz... the Vandals took The handles! Ayup, ransacked that hand-ratchet thing Right clean outta the works, they did! (Skol) I wonder... is this trope topical? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!

Most certainly. :cool: Even, Some human VS so-close-to-human You can't hardly tell Without yer DNA sensor You sent off for with them Wheaties box-tops. This could NEVER be. Ever. PLENTY of folks MORE than eagre To tell you what is what, And what it is, is much, And which and where is... meagre. Though, A couple Vandals may clamber in, eventually, And make wise with yer handle. :eek: Being pseudo Capitalists (... Corporate welfare and all) And charmed by faux democracy (... nice idea, perhaps we'll try it some time?) So... get ready! LOLOLOLOL! waltero, Didn't you know? There ain't no Many player game no more, just The two sides, 2/3 of Axis, and the Allied. Now, on topic, as some would Absolutely INSIST, every once in a while, For each & every thread: This AI won't suck, But, it will be the BEST That it can be, And that's no fast-buck luck, It's Hubert passing Yet another... 1/0 test. :cool:

Mr Bill is right on, and not to mention... there will be somewhere in the neighborhood of, oh, I'd guess, Several HUNDREDS of ways & means To "balance" ANY kind of game you guys Wish to play. Not to say that Hubert is NOT making, as of this moment and beyond, A very good AI. I would agree that the degree Of complexity will make it a daunting task, No doubt. However, with great suggestions, Now (... IE, from Edwin P. in particular) AND with a previous SC-1 blue-print To work from, AND with the many myriad suggestions That WILL soon ensue! Once the game is released, AND thus & so, The very SAME great support AFTER market, Well, how come all this consternation? :confused: I have NO DOUBT whatsoever that everyone WILL have the game they prefer, Whether that be TCP/IP, or PBEM, Or, AND including, thrilling And challenging SOLO play. You guys just don't REALLY know, as yet, WHAT can be done With a bit of imagination. It truly boggles the mind. Herein lies the problem... most are PRESUMING An old, archaic and commonplace sort Of PC game. WITHOUT the kind of Editor that will be placed, Squarely, in YOUR hands. THAT is the difference you seem NOT To be taking into account. So. What will it take for the "Average Joe" With little or even NO experience Using this Editor, To make - create - alter - fine tune, THE game that will very nearly perfectly Satisfy him, and I guess, some of hers? Hmmmm, maybe a couple weeks? Probably... less. :cool: [ November 28, 2005, 08:50 AM: Message edited by: Desert Dave ]