Desert Dave

This is really cool, SC Cats! Absolutely fantastic responses, which WILL, not any doubt, be VERY helpful. Not surprised, nix nix, I have been around many forums over the years, and what I have always said (... LOL, yep Kuni, a'times NOT so clearly as, perhaps, it might be? ) yet holds true: THIS forum KNOWS things. About WW-2 GS ETO gaming. ALL these replies are quite informed, and even after playing just about every WW-2 GS game ever made, board or pixel, over 40 + years, I have learned a new thing or two. How about some more of you guys who are into league play expressing your preferences? AND, any lurkers out there, NOW is the time to jump in and say, once anyway! what you'd like to see in the way of game balance. Sure, it goes without saying that Hubert will make final decisions, but ALL these extremely well-informed comments will surely make a difference. :cool:

OK, as we move into latter stages of testing SC-2, I would REALLY like to know what ALL of the VERY knowledgable members think about... Just WHAT constitutes a "balanced" WW-2 ETO GS game? The "grand campaign" and not the shorter scenarios. We surely know what actually happened, and everyone has on opinion on why it ended as it did. BUT, what I would be VERY curious about, Is this: Is the WW-2 ETO GS game "balanced" if there is a 50-50 chance of either the Axis or Allied side winning? [... this is germaine most especially, I would guess, to all of those who prefer to play competitive, in leagues, using the DEFAULT '39 scenario... but also, for the very many who enjoy solo play... in any event, you can always bolster one side or the other using the Editor] OR, should it be closer to real events, IE, toward game's end, Italy has already been liberated, and GErmany is defending the Rhine and trying to keep massive Russian armies out of Poland and Eastern GErmany. What chance for Axis success? 50% ?? 20-30 % ?? What do you think should be a "balanced game?" :cool:

And so, EP, you bring up another VERY troublesome aspect for the SC-2 player. There are force pool limits. There is only so much gained ground the GErmans can cover, garrison wise. Last night when I played the game, the GErmans got raked over by those Norwegian partisans... with substantial damage to the iron ore mines. :eek: Let's see... you'll likely need 4 corps to cover Norway sufficiently (... UK can spare this many low-tech militia type units? I wonder?) How many more in France, would you suppose, with the "Free France underground?" How many more in mountains of Greece? With those fierce Spartan descendants? How many more in Tito's Yugoslavia? How many here, there - everywhere at once! :eek: In truth: GErmany has a problem, one among many. Sure, you CAN take damn near any Minor you want, and usually, not a major problem. But, as above, and as it will be with Spain (... or Egypt or Ireland for the UK) you always gotta watch out for those partisans... some of which appear on board, with that cool new partisan sprite, while others do their sly sabotage invisibly. :cool:

Sure he should, right along with all the other bing-bang around slang they stick in them things these mad mod days: Lucky Zebra: (lukk-ee zee bra) [savannah Africa in origin] The sort of dude who don't KNOW, for sure, whether 'is stripes are too narrow, or all them empty spaces... too large.

Actually, JJ, didn't Yogi say: Or... was that the OTHER Yogi, the Yankee, the one what was real & truly INTO... the game. :cool:

You recall correctly, EP. And JdF2 need be worried no longer. Only, it is not "Murmansk Convoy" but "Arctic Convoy" since the destination is the (... occasionally "iced over") Russian port of Archangel, and not Murmansk, which does not fit on the default map. [... GErman player may decide to send more Panzers and grenadiers NORTH, by way of Vologda, so to cut that potentially lucrative convoy? And yep, that depends on how generous UK can be, at any given point in the game...] And sure, the small, isolated port of Trondheim is VITAL to the GErman game player, should he or even, she, opt for active shadowing of those ice-rimed transports. In fact, I can foresee this particular strategy as causing quite a fierce contest. Should UK player be prepared to land in Trondheim? Should GErman player be prepared to RISK their meagre Kriegsmarine... BEFORE Bismark arrives on the sea-going scene? Would that delay be just enough to allow UK to carry the day, IE, conquer Norway BEFORE the GErmans can do so? And if THAT happens, is UK then more vulnerable to See Lowe? Typical, I tell you true. Of SC-2. SO-o-o-o VERY many choices to make, WRT to EVERY single... action-reaction escapade! :cool:

LOLOLOL, Ah, mcaryf, THAT would alleviate any and ALL inter-continental objections, no doubt! :cool: Though, it is a finicky Imp trick of timing... to have that PT-109 in both ETO and PTO, AND avoiding those sluicing & slicing RJN Destroyers! Fair lad John was aces with me; but Bobby was the one I got out and actively campaigned for... a true and rare Irish-American treasure, we lost too soon.

VERY cool and clever thread title. In SC-2 there IS a port at Dublin, for one thing. For another, IF the British player assaults that glittering emerald Isle, there is a stiff "diplomatic penalty" to pay, not only for USA (... can you imagine ALL them immigrated Irish marching in tumult through Times Square, and also real irate in marble corridors of Wash DC? :eek: ) But also, once USA has entered, there will be diplo costs for OTHER concerned Minor countries in the vicinity. Finally, apt is the mention of "Irish resistance" by Edwin P, because now you'll have Irish PARTISAN activity should UK go ahead and choose to risk all this ire. They can either keep a garrison there, or send it elsewhere by transport. James Joyces' beloved Dublin would be quite liable for mayhem, and no hero argonaut Ulysses might arrive and change that plight!

Bill has it right on, There WILL indeed be immense differences In how you'll have to play The Russian Campaign. And I DO mean... immense. Greater open spaces there on them Steppes, AND very many choices to make In terms of S & T. I would differ with his excellent account, only on this score: I'm not so sure we have firmly established That 60% figure... could be higher, We'll have to see what Mr H decides. Yet, it IS an inspired idea, and will surely Be just one more feature that should cause The "defensive GP" to have some sooner Arriving reserves, which can also Be outfit with the latest Tech advances, thereby saving the turn Usually required to pull back from the line For re-fit. :cool:

Bill and I have both campaigned for "special events" since the beginning, given our appreciation of 3R, A3R and JP's 3R and how they handled these. Now, since Hubert is fiercely focused on getting AI done, it's not very likely we'll see very much of this, at least, in initial edition. Later? Who knows. :cool: In any event YOU can use "Activation #3" scripts to MOD a game and include the above mentioned "Spanish Civil War Variant," OR... let's say, "Austria's Defiance," or "Czech Independence" or "Venezuela Oil Convoys," or early preparedness and entry by Belgium (... actively aligned with France), OR... "Z-plan" - using "unit scripts." And etc. What you'll need to do is create a new '39 scenario and move the starting date up a bit so to allow these "what ifs" to be established, based on the requisite conditions of existance. Then, you can use that most amazing! Editor and have SEPARATE Nations like Austria, Venezuela and even, should you choose, a Free French colony somewhere on the board. Like others have already mentioned, I look forward with GREAT anticipation to see just what snazzy razz-matazz you'll come up with Edwin. [ December 31, 2005, 09:01 AM: Message edited by: Desert Dave ]

Inane, Insane, What diff? To a plain old war-gamer. 3 cheers to all, Long time, lurker, or only new!

With a really, REALLY short stick. Sure, Littler even, than a toothpick. Have done so, and, I'd agree - deft design and a "good to look at" map. I like the idea of having hex SIDES being a hindrance instead of the whole hex. Allows for more flexibility as you maneuver in and within mountain ranges, for instance, IE, you can follow the ridge line and not attack/cross over. Couldn't agree more. THAT is one laden-down logistic. :eek: Less like the Red Ball Express, And more like floods of "supply slugs" Nudging blocks of granite around. I MIGHT buy this one when it hits The remainder bin, BUT ONLY if it is less than... $3 dollars. Should happen, I agree. (... that's 3 agrees in one post, I am getting too mellow, ah, it's the New Year nostalgia fugue, and like JJ, I've seen too many more than a few) **I would recommend John Prados' Third Reich to all those serious WW-2 GS game players out there. Not "card-driven" like so many of the new Euro issues, but partly... "chit-draw" driven. For example, every 3-month turn You draw a new chit, and these can be some political, economic or military "special event" that MUST be acted on. For example, there is one that REQUIRES the British player (... Churchill interferes, again!) to re-enact some foolish and hastily conceived intervention, such as - opposing huge Pz IV armees with several regiments only outfit with a couple of 2-pounders, in mountains of Greece). And, there are optional "pre-game" events to roll the dice for (... that's one thing I REALLY miss these mod days - rolling out them bones!), as for instance: "Austria resists Hitler's demands and remains neutral." They get some armor & armies and the GErman player can either TRY to convince them to come to their senses through diplomacy, OR... impatiently invade and waste resources in order to conquer. Of course, this takes equivalent number of GErman units out of their own force pool. And, there is the Z-plan, which I always like to get. So much so, that I sometimes, I admit, roll the dice again. And again!

LOLOLOL, ah, as I ever supposed, (... since I lived in that X-tremely mind bending place - for 4 years! Germany and France and Italy and all over the place I did go, though, didn't make it to Sweden, where they have ALL them knock-out babes, laughing & frolic and combing the ice out of long golden locks, too bad!) Them Euro's KNOW things! :cool: BTW, since you DID get the correct answer, I wonder? What? Prize did rambo send your way? An old, worn & withered 9 iron? That very same one he used When he once tried to hack his way Out of the sea-side sand At Pebble Beach? Scoring a perfect 15? Clint Eastwood watching The whole amazing! exercise From the top of the cliff?

Though Zapp and I seem not to agree On much of anything, In this instance, I must take his side. There IS no solution, at least, Not a one that is knowable Given our current circumscribed Mind-set. In the puzzle provide by jjr, There are simply WAY too many factors (... being a MATH exercise, this IS the proper term) Omitted. Here's what I saw, THIS Is what happened, and I would insist It is indeed A legitimate and perfectly reasonable Explanation. That mis-fortunate soldier got sick And tired of the whole Stooped mess, and dropped out Of formation. Assuming that the soldiers are ABLE To march in formation, They MUST have been in the Army Long enough to do so, Without wandering off into any number Of slant or skewed directions, well, This I know because I once had to do Similar sorts of sweat stuff Under wet-hot Lousiana sun Down 'ere in Fort Polk. (... don't believe me? TRY to get all of your neighbors in a one mile radius, say, after even ten days of intensive drill, to march along in orderly rank!) Now, ANY single person - for WHATEVER private Reason, deliberate or accidental, who DARES To depart from the conventional "norms" And restrictions IMPOSED by a crowd, or ANY briefly cohesive group, Would be either: a) Shunned, ignored, or Actually accosted. (... there are infinite possibilities, but since we are restricted in terms of space continuation, let's just go with the two) In this puzzle, I believe that soldier Would be ack! attacked! :mad: Since soldiers are necessarily trained To act as... one. It's how they remain effective, and, Perform their vital task - in "Brother in arms" harmony. Sure, it's a very UN-natural human Condition... looking out for the other guy Instead of being Self concerned. Sheer survival will do that. And, Since "survival of fittest" is presumed To have gotten us this far, Thus far, Well, That soldier would soon enough be sprawled On the unforgiving ground. Bruised and blooded. Sucking at boot raised dusty air. **(... IPSO, and therefore, going NOWHERE, not 2.4 miles nor one nor 3 nor nothing in decimals, in-between) You can RARELY oppose the will & wishes Of the masses and get away With it. Anyway, He would have awoken a bit later And a'wondered? Where at has my "company of brothers" Went to? Nothing now to do, given This strange but quite exciting Solitude, except Wander to & fro, Upon the garden Earth. And, so, he did. But it wasn't no garden, no, It turned out to be: 40 years! on the Desert. Like some other saintly Cat we have Heard tell of. Finally, He would've - by purest chance, Arrived back! at his departure point, And there - met That decrepit Drill Sergeant, Who would - he could do Nothing other, inquire: "Where in Hell! You been! You! Disdainful, disruptive, MALINGERING Son of a B**ch!" :mad: Hey Sarge, take you a large pill, One a' them anti-arousables Charming gal Alice recommends, And... chill the gills Still, baby. See, while I was out on Desert, I met some Ghosts of men, ah, "not solid dudes" In the mod way of saying, By name of: Heisenberg Karl Popper Thomas Kuhn Paul Feyerabend - and, One... "thing" that may well have been Some temporarily apparently appearing Demon, I don't really know and am glad! It was so, else I would ever assume that these Did not exist, since so many of the Crowd Has insisted it simply CANNOT be, Yet, yippee! Now I know they in fact, DO exist. Would have PREFERRED some women, But them see-through men Is what I got so let's Skip to the scat Cat's interlude, Yep, here you go Joe, THIS is a very abbreviated list Of what that aggregate said: There are ALWAYS "confounding factors." A person viewing ANY event CHANGES that event, usually In truly imperceptible ways That ain't hardly realized For days - sometimes - Centuries even. EVERYONE "selects out" unique and TINY portions Of the TREMENDOUSLY IMMENSE "Whole big shebang"... to observe. Most folks PREFER their personally perceived "Order out of Chaos," and occasionally Will maim or even kill the one who disagrees (... alas, this mindless tendency is increasing, geo metrically), or, As with our puzzled soldier, will merely Beat the hell out of 'im, either With cudgel or gun-butt or By way of scurrilous words. It IS possible - maybe one fine Spring Day Far, far into the future, That a "common epiphany" shall indeed Be realized, and, perhaps, Taken to heart. Until then, well Sarge, I advise: Don't give me solutions. Don't march me up & down like some Plastic chess piece pawn, And most especially! Next time I am lying on the ground, Bleeding and secretly soughing For surcease, or succor, or Manna, Do me a favor, eh? Summon the Shamans And/or Curanderos, Please. The rest of them faux healers You'll find tripping all over themselves Here in mod Med America, Can just... take a hike! LOLOLOL! And for sure, there IS such a thing As... love at first sight, Or... life-changing accidents, or Beginer's Luck! :cool: [ December 30, 2005, 07:20 AM: Message edited by: Desert Dave ]

Well gee, I remove me ball-hat and cringe. This is awful Harsh lingo Toward a Cat who has Entered-in and engaged the game place With really wry play On 'is stage name. See, he has deliberately MIS spelled Beginner's (... luck?) to be... beginer's! Now, THAT is cool laconic ironic, Should you ask me. A kind of... zonked Zen technique So to show He's no flame-for-fame Ego! Somewhere! In that clang lango Essayed thus far, Is a riddle, Should you be able To decipher through, Very-end to almost-middle. Can you do it - K-worth! So, la lo, and besides, The world ain't enny 2+2= 4? How improbably poor! Math formula. Rather, a kaleid O! scope! :cool: EVERYTHING changes a mighty TINY fraction Each & every nano instant, Including some straggling gaggle Of drummed into action soldiers, so To arrive at approximate answer, You might do - one of two things: 1) Buy a ticket, but! DO NOT board 'at milky-way train Ol' Einstein is YET riding around in, Here to Eternity, rather Stand beside the station tracks And wonder if it will EVER Come - parallax, again. OR, 2) Go ask Alice. I think she'll know. That LOGIC & PROPORTION Have long, long ago Fallen all sloppy dead... AND The White Knight's hop Scotching - awk!ward backward! So... remember - what the Dormouse said, Feed your head! A child's sing-song story, About not hot nor, too cold "porridge Of... perspective," instead. (... then you were a Child, you knew that ALL them adults were Cuckoo, you forgot this elemental school Truth... so soon? :confused: )

vveedd, I see, is a man of many faces! LOL! Well, That's only appropriate, Since we have SC players From all over the place! And so, in shared spirit, and, NOT leaving any single one out, No matter how they worship, or believe, I too wish everyone, Season's Greetings! :cool: And may your holidays be eased And, happy and... the gathering Of old friends and new Friends, and family... at peace.

Careful... how you say, CT, See, It's renegade NSA. These are the days Of man-animal shadows Casing the alleys And lanes O those shaded Oak & elm limned lanes, Of... what was once - one brief, But brilliant! Moment, Mainstreet, USA.

Meanwhile, Haohmaru, - where went? The truly immense and commendable Ozzy Zen Sense? :confused: That real tremendous patience In the face of... relatively speaking, A VERY BRIEF delay In the making of a war-game, or, Perhaps, In your case, The waiting out - the final future physic Of... an aboriginal dream? (... great nick BTW - and say, said another way, what does it mean?)

The chance to move land or air units to distant locations at reduced cost. Amphibious Movement was originally conceived to be a separate research category, but, in the end, Hubert opted for the KISS principle, IE, IF you have an argument with your wife or mistress or girl-friend, ALWAYS make it right, just as soon as you can, with a kiss... Ooooops, WRONG one I mean to say, Amphib is contained within the Infrastructure category since that allows ALL forms of movement to be in ONE category, thus... "keeping it simple, Senor." Amphib is EXPENSIVE (... twice the cost of plain old transport from port to port) and so researching Infrastructure will reduce the cost of amphibious movements, and, transport as well. It is supposed that you are not only improving roads and rail, but also port facilities and your transport network in general, no matter how done or whether across land or the 7 Seas. **[... having Amphib COST a LOT more is ideal in another way, as it prevents too many of those willy-nilly "nuisance raids"... IF you intend to amphib invade, you have to PAY for it; thus, it would most especially be something the USA Player would probably want to invest in for later invasions of North Afrika or France] And, it is for your usual Operational Moves. This could be an immense savings over the course of a 6 year war, especially for those countries that have far-flung territories, as Britain, or who would advance deep into enemy territory, as GErmany early, and Russia later. And, if you are using "home builds" as an option (... and it IS part of the default game) then Infrastructure would save you MPP's since you could only place newly constructed units that arrive off of the build queu in your HOME country. OK, what benefit? Well, it REDUCES cost of Op Moves and Naval movement of men and materiel by 15% for EACH level of achievment. IF you should reach level 5, you would consequently save 75% (... 5 Xs 15) for each and every Op Move or transport/amphibious movement. [ December 16, 2005, 05:06 AM: Message edited by: Desert Dave ]

Yep, no doubt! This system is not perfect, very few are, but what it DOES do is allow some "secret sorties" to take place, where the GP can launch surprise Carrier attacks on ships at sea, or in port, and permit the various navies to operate in wider, more wide-ranging arcs. In the Atlantic, the U-boot VS convoy conflict is by far the more important aspect. Thus, with reduced spotting all around, those boats can actually get to the convoy lanes and wreak real havoc once arrived. In the Med, well, that "little Lake" is so small, that it is going to be VERY interesting in terms of tactical maneuvering. IE, where to place the naval bombers and/or land based air, and when. All in all, as said, I find the new game to replicate all the actual (... and what-if) naval wars pretty doggone good! :cool: Later, after some serious game play by all the Admirals and Ack-Ack cats out there, well, who knows what might be tweaked further? As with spotting & strike ranges of various craft, or even, some variation of your fine idea of simulating "search patterns" with random chances of success based on distance and weather and the like. Let's get the game out there! First.

Lars, Sure enough, in a certain sense you are right. However, what we want to AVOID is a situation where a stationary Bomber, with spotting ability that is VERY high, Could, in effect, see EVERYTHING that goes on, naval sortie wise, see what I mean? As with SC-1, where all you had to do was place a bomber in Scotland and you would ALWAYS know what the GErman Navy was up to, ANYWHERE in the North East Atlantic area. Sure, would be great to have "search patterns" and percentages of success based on # of patrol craft and fog-banks and profile of task forces and etc. But, that's quite unlikely to happen. So. A ship that is beyond the spotting range of the Naval Bomber will "see" the enemy formation and THEN the NB can join in, should it be within strike range. I understand what you are saying, and it does make meta-logical sense. Yet, not everything in war-games, board or pixel, proceeds precisely according to every actual demand of "the physic." And so, that is a little bit more micro-managing of the naval wars than is currently implemented, or planned. Good commentary and suggestions though.

Well, all I know is that one of them JU 87 models was modified to be a naval bomber. .... M, N, O, P, Q? R, S, T, U, V? W, X, Y or was it - Z? "R" I think it was, ya, with a range of 8 tiles. It was on a recently declassified manifest that I read using that Freedom of Information Act. The JU87® pilot had asked ground control: "How many miles die Tagen canst Ich machen?" Ground control hadst replied: "Du canst machen, ummm, about... 8 tiles, given der prevailing SM variables!" So, there you have it, it's now official.

Thanks, SM, for the above Ju B & D ranges. What naval plane is going to be asked to perform such an extraordinary feat? Let's say that the Bomber, at start of game, has a range of... 8. Each tile= ~60 miles. 8 Xs 60= 480 miles. According to the data supplied by SM, Ju87B range= 490 miles. So, whether you consider the Ju/B as part of an air fleet, or as naval bombing squadron (... as with "Fleigkorps X" which dominated Central Med for a good while in 1941), it does indeed closely conform, true?

JJ, Well then! Bill has noted your (... and a few others') concerns and posted a suggestion, a request in the Beta Forum. It's all we can do. Hubert is so very busy coding for AI that I don't know if this could even be done, coding wise or time wise - for now. Post release, who knows? WRT to your other comments, I'd say this: 1) Air Fleets will no longer be so powerful no matter how we look at it; they will reduce morale and readiness, primarily, with some SP loss. 2) Air Fleets simply CANNOT dominate anyway (... so I admit, part of my own argument is incomplete, thus slightly askew) BECAUSE there are force-pool limits. :cool: Not only that, but once you start researching, then upgrading, the COST is going to be VERY extensive when it comes time to reinforce, most especially for "elite reinforcements," IE, over and above size "10," which depends on "experience medals" earned. Having played the '39 game through a couple times now, I can tell you this: a) Since spotting for Bombers is reduced, they do NOT have dreadful impact on subs @ Sea in the Atlantic, UNLESS there are surface units out there which can spot for them (... also, the surface units have reduced spotting, AND, U-boots are not likely to head for the convoy lanes within SB range! and, plenty of room for them to avoid notice, since the Ocean is larger too). In the Med, well, there you'll need AF interceptors and/or escorts so to assist or deflect naval bombing raids on surface ships. Not a problem, as the Med is small enough to allow judicious placement of AF and Bomber alike. More of that chess-match, and more GP choices to make. :cool: There are FEWER units on board, but there is MUCH MUCH more variation in kinds of units, EVEN within the same category. For instance, as GErmany I bought a lot of 0-0-0 (... for I/W, A/T, Motor) Corps so to place as garrison or partisan-preventing units. Or, a L-0 tank unit used as recon, even though I had L-3 tanks for the purpose of "blitz and krieg!" So, all in all - and as you, I absolutely favor a "historical approach" in almost all aspects of game design, the AF vs Bomber problem is truly less of one than might be imagined. Doesn't mean there still won't be some tweaks. And, you CAN edit your game to be PRECISELY how you like it. For instance, I may well have one '39 scenario where the Air Fleets are ONLY fighters & interceptors (... and costing ~ 275 MPP ea) Whereas the "bombers" are three-fold: 1) TAC 2) Naval 3) Strat Just for the heck of it, with appropriate cost and CTV changes... so to see how she plays! We CAN... do... just about... anything! [ December 11, 2005, 11:06 AM: Message edited by: Desert Dave ]

Well, SM, the thing is... we could do that for EVERY single combat unit that we now have. Different ranges, or AP's, different attack-ability, different thickness of armor for the different tank models, and on and on. As of now, Hubert has decided on having just TWO air unit types. Air Fleets, and Bombers. Whether that would change, I have no way of knowing. Assuming that it doesn't, then we are discussing (... which is ALWAYS a good thing; I am wondering where are ALL those others who usually have a LOT to say?) how BEST to SUGGEST Some better ways to implement this. Could the CTV's (... "combat target values" for those who haven't been aboard for very long) be tweaked to make for a game that MOST folks would prefer? Hubert does indeed read and listen to the suggestions, so maybe EVERYONE should pitch in their 2 cents while they got a shot at it.