Wicky

Was researching a battle near Debrecen, Hungary when I saw this in the sidebar and just had to see what it was. The encounter was very nearly fatal--because I found myself convulsing. With laughter!  Having seen but brief clips from the impressive film covering that iconic battle, I'm sure most of what's here goes over my head, but even so...
 

 
Regards,
 
John Kettler
 
 

LukeFF,
 
There isn't supposed to be any flaming here at all. That's precisely the point of the Forum Rules which, like him, you choose to ignore in your continuing vicious campaign against me. You might wish to consider that things have now reached the point where other Forumites are now quoting the Forum Rules to you. Others are publicly calling you on your outrageous behavior toward me and have down voted your posts. Which you were then somehow caught up voting subsequently! Over and over again I have asked you to leave me in peace. Which you won't. Lately, it seems you're even trying to force me to limit myself to the GDF, to which you have now many times referred me. Odd, then, isn't it, that my "inappropriate topics" seem to have spawned quite a bit of discussion, even appreciation? TRADOC manuals, this thread, the T-90 doc thread--for starters. I am going about my lawful occasions here, which you seem utterly determined to prevent me from having. You really need to figure out why you have this obsession with me--and start behaving like a rational human, an adult and a reasonable facsimile of a man! Leave me alone!!!
 
Regards,
 
John Kettler

Mmmm Korean tank from at least 2008 ( http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2008/11/205_34719.html) conveniently jaunts in time and space to the present day half-way across the planet - chances nil

Mmmm Korean tank from at least 2008 ( http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2008/11/205_34719.html) conveniently jaunts in time and space to the present day half-way across the planet - chances nil

Mmmm Korean tank from at least 2008 ( http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2008/11/205_34719.html) conveniently jaunts in time and space to the present day half-way across the planet - chances nil

Mmmm Korean tank from at least 2008 ( http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2008/11/205_34719.html) conveniently jaunts in time and space to the present day half-way across the planet - chances nil

Mmmm Korean tank from at least 2008 ( http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2008/11/205_34719.html) conveniently jaunts in time and space to the present day half-way across the planet - chances nil

SeinfeldRules,
 
Fuze, MT, if we still have it, is not going to give you the consistent HOB VT will. Were that not the case, it would never have been adopted in the FA. As for evidence of such specialized ECM...US prox buster 1968 test protocol, An entire book on prox fuzes, with coverage of both ECM and ECCM. How about 5 distinct US systems intend to protect against prox, some of which saw combat and worked quite well?
 
Switching to Seinfeld in closing, I late last year got to eat boxed soup put out by the real chef who formed the basis of the famous/infamous soup Nazi. His name is Al Yeganeh, billed as The Original Soupman, with the last two words being his site URL. Got some on clearance (made it affordable for me) at Tom Thumb. Good stuff, Maynard. Have had both the Crab & Corn Chowder and the Chicken Gumbo. 
 
Regards,
 
John Kettler

Wicky,
 
You've been all over me of late, to include your deliberate baiting of me, despite numerous direct requests from me that you stop doing so, in a thread I started specifically to appease others who were complaining that I'd made too many posts. You knew full well when you did it that I wasn't allowed to so much as mention the things you brought up. Additionally it's readily demonstrable that you've been on me for years. I called you no name whatsoever. Rather, I addressed the behavior of both you and LukeFF. It's very ironic that you savage me over and over again with no thought whatsoever for me, my feelings, or even the effects your savage campaign has had on me and my creaky and fragile health. I'm not supposed to be stressed, you know this, yet you deliberately do things which cause me great stress. If you ever said something about your family and sensitivities related thereto, I must've missed it. That you should complain about being insulted after what you've been doing to me for a very long time is rich beyond words. Lying about me is okay with you. Slandering me is okay with you. Deliberately mischaracterizing me is okay with you. Conducting character assassination of me is okay with you. This set of observations must be true, because you've done, and continue to do, all those things and more. I've done everything but stand on my head to get you to behave appropriately toward me, but you won't do it. You might back off briefly, but that's all. Yet you're demonstrably capable of being socially appropriate with other Forumites. But you insist on coming at me like a rabid dog.
 
Now, let me set you straight. Steve never gave me an infraction. I got one from Moon over a year ago because you, in your typical perverse style, went over to a place I must not name, came back, made some outrageous set of accusations based on that, and I, placed once again in a situation in which I was under yet another vile attack from you, sought to defend myself by showing what was really said by me and got so worked up I inadvisedly posted a link to a certain place. That got me the Moon rocket, so to speak, because of the rule prohibiting commercial links. I worked my way eventually out of that. Steve has asked me in the past not to start posts on certain hot topics after you et al. went nuclear time and again in response to them. Nor have you ever let me off the hook for several technical mistakes I made regarding V-2 installations, mistakes I've several times publicly admitted. It has served you well in your endless efforts to discredit and humiliate me. You even went so far as to wreck a 2012 CMA thread in which several of us had a great discussion going on Russian lasers, one in which there was a serious military-technical discussion being conducted. Since any topic along the lines you know quite well automatically led to enormous Forum upheaval from you et al.,, Steve, in my estimation, decided to avoid future board explosions by not having certain things discussed. That's his prerogative. As the old SEAL Team Six saying goes "Thou hast not to like it, thou just hath to do it." Which is what I've been doing ever since.
 
Thus, I am in full compliance with the Forum Rules, and I rigorously honor Steve's request. Additionally, and with no rule existing requiring me to do so, I'm not allowed to so much as mention a certain endeavor of mine quite well known to you.  That's from ChrisND, I deem it unfair, but there's nothing I can do about it. So now, I'm under the Forum Rules plus two other strictures. I got the warning because, and again not from any rule violation, I dared to state that information of a category I'm not allowed to state anymore (unless, per Steve's statement, I publicly provide my sources) confirmed a certain widely viewed YT vid. Again, I violated no  Forum Rules and was shocked to get a Warning out of the blue. Thus, you go around breaking Forum Rules like twigs, go way out of your way to conduct a broad array of prohibited direct and indirect ad hominem attacks against me, make my life, both on the Forums and at home, very stressful and unpleasant. Because of you and your (insert strong pejorative here) ilk, I'm now forced to operate as though I'm walking in pitch black, on thin ice. Heavily mined thin ice. Practically afraid to sneeze. Unless and until someone at BFC starts subjecting you and certain others to the same standards which have practically stifled me for some time now, you get to operate without a care in the world while I, despite disabilities, a brain injury from which I'm recuperating, and a bunch of other things, have to always exercise profound care what I over say and how I say it. Else, I'll be gone, not you and your brethren. Which, I have to say, very much appears to be your real objective in assailing me the way you do. 
 
Frankly, Wicky, for you to come at me as an injured, aggrieved innocent party is like the boy who murdered everyone in his family and when arrested, brought to trial and convicted, threw himself on the mercy of the Court. Why? On the grounds he was now an orphan! You have led a very charmed life on the Forums, and by any reasonable review of the vast evidence of your ongoing malefactions, ought long ago, in my considered view, to have been banished for good. Why you're still here is a great mystery to me.
 
Regards,
 
John Kettler 

Really, Kettler?
 
Is it really necessary to make every thread about you?  Is it really necessary to pollute every thread with your facile "analysis"? Is it really necessary to vomit up yet another worthless collection of googled links?
 
Really?

FFS the pompous JK soap opera rolls on
 
Care to explain why you've invoked my name when I haven't even posted in this thread? and then procedeed to insult me in a derogatory way using Russian slang - especially as my family were made refugees due to Russian invasion.
 
Funny as to what you accuse me of you've received your infractions for committing them already yourself.
 
Do you fully comprehend and appreciate why you've recieved your infractions from Steve et al, if so why do you baulk and rail against them?

FFS the pompous JK soap opera rolls on
 
Care to explain why you've invoked my name when I haven't even posted in this thread? and then procedeed to insult me in a derogatory way using Russian slang - especially as my family were made refugees due to Russian invasion.
 
Funny as to what you accuse me of you've received your infractions for committing them already yourself.
 
Do you fully comprehend and appreciate why you've recieved your infractions from Steve et al, if so why do you baulk and rail against them?

FFS the pompous JK soap opera rolls on
 
Care to explain why you've invoked my name when I haven't even posted in this thread? and then procedeed to insult me in a derogatory way using Russian slang - especially as my family were made refugees due to Russian invasion.
 
Funny as to what you accuse me of you've received your infractions for committing them already yourself.
 
Do you fully comprehend and appreciate why you've recieved your infractions from Steve et al, if so why do you baulk and rail against them?

LukeFF,
 
What an adroit sidestep to avoid responsibility for any of your actions, never mind the pointedly malevolent ones! Was that how you operated in the military? If not, why are you doing so here? You are in such a hurry to jump on me you go charging in without bothering to check whether I even said the latest thing you're on about. Additionally, were you to go do actual research, you'd see there  is burgeoning evidence, in places like the Daily Mail, which support my case and badly hurt yours. Presuming you bother to read, and your ongoing outrageous behavior toward me indicates this to be the case, you would know, for I've said it many times, there is a range of topics Steve has asked me not to bring up. I haven't. Which is precisely why you and Wicky delight in tormenting me and cudgeling me with them. Unlike you two, I can't afford to flout the Forum Rules with a campaign of harassment, intimidation, put downs, libel and character assassination, not to mention outright lies. You know there are zero consequences if you do, but if I slip once, I'll have two warnings, quite possibly a suspension. If I may make use of a particularly telling Russian word, your joint and several behavior is nekulturny.
 
Codename Duchess,
 
It's pretty bad when people who normally are driven to achieve to the heights are so profoundly disgusted with the status quo they don't want to because of pols and bureaucracy run amok. I recall reading something many years ago that something like this was happening in medicine and that those WASP types who would've gone to med school instead were opting for other careers. 
 
Razgovory,
 
Fortunately, I was done with my smoothie when I read your remark. Otherwise, I might've ruined my computer!

4TheFront,
 
Welcome aboard!
 
Regret to inform you that wasn't a joke. It was condemnation of and insult to Do Right via association with me. Additionally, it was a not so veiled warning. 
 
Regards,
 
John Kettler

JK, the thing is, you do have a bad habit of bringing up nuclear conspiracy theories, so I can understand why someone would make a joke about someone hanging around you too much.  ​ 

LukeFF,
 
I really do wish you'd stop slamming me, both directly and indirectly. It's rude, abusive and cruel. Worse because you keep choosing to attack someone who's not only disabled but also recuperating from a serious injury. Your ongoing pattern of doing this also involves, based on my read, at least, multiple violations of the Forum Rules you agreed to as a condition of being a participant here, the same deal everyone else here made. I think you're grown up enough that you can express an opinion on your own--without having to drag me into it. Please do so. 
 
Do Right,
 
PAL is Permissive Action Link, and it's not a program you load into a computer. The link explains what a PAL is and how it works. As for patches, at 1:07 in the vid I see what used to be the patch for KGB Spetsnaz Alpha, now FSB Spetsnaz Alpha. The patch on the man's left shoulder which, even with my nil Russian, reads ANTITERROR, appears to me to be identical to the one in the upper right at the Lost Ivan link. Here's what I don't know. Is he the real deal, or is he wearing it because he's a member of some sort of separatist Spec Ops unit and/or as some sort of martial fashion statement? Having watched footage of Alpha in action, I'd say he's not the real deal. Those guys carry themselves considerably differently and well, send out a different vibe, for want to a better word. Girkin/Strelkov is a known (cough) retired FSB GRU Colonel. Later, in a since redacted interview posted online, he admitted he was an FSB colonel. 

Alpha in action!


 
Codename Duchess,
 
Is the periodical/site you sort of named some sort of sacred cow that you didn't name it completely? Regarding Captain Heather Cole, the quote I see here refers to "loss of confidence" in her ability to command. Is that the same as a bad command climate, or is that something else? The comments make interesting reading, for some are by people who served under her at other commands. They thought she was a good CO.
 
But directly pertinent to the issue Do Right raised about the purported refusal to launch nuclear weapons is the source of the story is evidently The European Union Times. A bit on that from the Southern Poverty Law Center which, from what I've seen, is extremist in its own way. I strongly suspect the unnamed principal is, in fact, Sorcha Faal aka David Booth. Once in three or four blue moons said "worthy" puts out a story that's actually true. But for all the flak I get here from some, I practically convulse with laughter after encountering one breathless story after another directly sourced to inside the GRU, by implication within the Aquarium. Say what you like about Suvorov/Rezun, but he was in it, and I totally believe what he said about its mania for secrecy. Were there such a source, I'd expect a very short productive period before there was no source, other than smoke from the on-site crematorium! Other commenters talk about the apparent explosion of command removals under Obama. 300 according to one. Nor does the section Relieved of Command make cheery reading. The depth and breadth of commands affected, to me, speaks to organizations under acute stress, with the Navy the hardest hit because it's the Navy as a service which is carrying, and has been carrying, the biggest load for the longest time, and it just keeps getting worse. I have no handle on what Obama's doing and why, other than that he has no respect for the military, can't be bothered to understand it, yet has no compunctions about  demanding ever more from it, regardless of the costs. Moving on.

General question
 
Can anyone say, one way of the other, whether the CO in the Luhansk training ground video is a Russian officer? Whoever he is, he sure has a ramrod straight spine, feet apart bestriding his domain, total confidence and positively radiates authority. He comes across as being used to command and relishes it. Also, I thought I heard the term "komandir brigada," which I took to mean Brigade Commander. If so, I would think, given the way I understand the separatists are organized, he'd be a very big deal indeed.
 
Regards,
 
John Kettler 

The General Discussion forum is down below.

You've been spending too much time around Kettler.

Some thoughts on this fascinating topic. Let's start with NKA SOF. I don't know what they have now, but during my time at Hughes Aircraft Missile Systems Group (early 1978-late 1984), NK SOF were a nightmare. They were constantly running cross-border and from-the-sea raids via surface craft and subs into ROK territory. Worse, they had no less, per the DIA, than 400 Russian-supplied An-2/COLT single engine, wooden bladed (very important detail), practically all wood transport aircraft, each capable of carrying a squad of highly trained commandos. Because, except for the engine and a few other oddments, there was very little for radar to reflect from, starting with the inconveniently for us missing rapidly spinning metal prop, these birds, big as they were, were practically radar invisible. Big problem. Just thinking about the havoc such a force could wreak made me cringe. Pretty much how the DIA viewed things, too. The language was more measured, but it was absolutely clear DIA viewed the NKA SOF as a major threat. A fanatical one at that. Happily, NKA SOF today are nothing like as grim a threat as when I was a military analyst. Despite their special status, all but the cream of NKA SOF is finding things falling apart across the board, to such an extent there've been defections to both PRC and ROK. Just as well, since the last thing we need are 30,000 well-fed snipers who get plenty of firing practice, rather than current meager allotments. Speaking of meager, ROKA SOF has suffered some painful force size reductions, because of budget cuts. The An-2s are now vulnerable because ROKA now has the means to detect low flyers, whose pilots, I'm happy to say, are not getting many flight hours. Here's a deadly serious look at NKA SOF training for the elite 124th Army Unit from which The Blue House raiders to kill ROK's president Park Chung-Hee came. Two years of training and two weeks on a full scale mockup of The Blue House, ROK's White House. So far, I've yet to encounter anything about recruiting young boys into SOF, but it is a very militarized society, and I have no doubt talent spotters are out there. 
 
One of the people I worked with back then was a guy named LT COL, Ret. Bob Siegrist, a battlefield commissioned WW II officer who was instrumental in getting the Hughes TOW missile into the Army. He was the TOW guy at Hughes when it came to what's what , particularly when it came to effectiveness modeling. Back then, things were ugly. NK forces were huge, the weapon technology gap was nothing like today's, and the ground forces were not expected to be able to hold on ground where, in a real sense, there was no defensible terrain. Consequently, the expectation was the defense line would be the Han River. If this looks familiar, it should, because that's pretty much the bind Ukraine's in, except it's the Dneiper River.  Defending on largely flat, featureless ground vs an armor heavy force coming in huge numbers just doesn't work. Consequently, something had to be done. The solution was I forget how many (quite a few) Hughes 500 helos, each with 4 x TOW. On them lay the burden of taking the steam out of the NK drive to the Han.  You'd be amazed by how much a few feet of TOW sight height affected helo survivability. The difference between chin and rooftop was considerable, but going to mast mounted made a huge difference, which is precisely why the OH-58 Kiowa is configured that way. It really matters. As I recall, the NK didn't have much in the way of SAMs, but they did have AAA, lots of it, including ZSU-23/4s. This was 6+ years after the NVN used them in combat there. Also, for quite some time, TOW had only 3000 (later extended to 3750) meter range, placing it inside the envelope of radar controlled 37 mm and 57 mm guns. But wait. There's more.
 
Unlike today, NKA artillery and MRLs based in caves were practically invulnerable. At best, even the mighty Maverick could hope for jamming the 3' thick sand filled (effectively, siliceous core armor) armored sliding doors covering the tunnel entrance. There were no I 2000s, no JDAM and very few LGB. We fully expected the NKA to sleet Seoul with artillery and rockets and didn't consider it defensible at all against ground attack, but the Seoul of then was nothing like today's Seoul, which might very well be something like Stalingrad with skyscrapers for the attacking NKA. We fully expected Seoul would fall but would be retaken after we'd (ROKA & US) beaten the NKA forces down enough to be able to counterattack. Precisely how it had previously occurred during the Korean War. Had NKA gone chemical, we would've gone nuclear. Or so I was told. 
 
We were also worried, and with very good reason, about NK tunnels under the DMZ. As I recall, the SECRET level Army Corps of Engineers study I read said there were 10, with many more suspected. It was assessed the first tunnel found, Infiltration Tunnel #1 could funnel 2000 men/hr into ROK. but the three monsters discovered later were enough to make strong men quail. These four are the known and officially admitted ones, some of which can move a Division/hour. Unsurprisingly, ROK officials haven't been at all receptive to a retired ROKA general who's been talking 84 tunnels.
  I don't recall what sort of tanks ROKA had, but I do recall seeing a pic of what was then called ROKIT (Republic Of Korea Indigenous Tank), which looked something like a scaled down Abrams. It was smaller because the men crewing it were, allowing very good protection without the vast weight of the larger US tank. I shall have to take a look at that study of what NKA artillery and MRLs could do to Seoul these days. I found something likely to be of interest. It's a site (NK NEWS.org)  intended to be a nonpartisan clearing house for all things NK. This is the link to the Intelligence part, which is replete with martial goodness.
 
Regards,
 
John Kettler

Please, do us all a favor and don't mention JK's website here again. 

Sorry to hear that.

The new complex is supposed to be able to cover 50 hectares, but my math brain is offline, so I couldn't say what radius of effect that works out to being. I strongly suspect this system is/will be the latest such in the Russian Army, and I seriously doubt the Russian Army would be interested in something effective only against a shell more or less directly overhead. Such systems, as you can see in the discussion for SPR-2 previously linked to, where it details the missions for such a jammer, are doing a lot more than protecting one AFV. If you look at either SPR, though, especially the SPR-2, it becomes instantly apparent why the notion of having one on each AFV, or even one per platoon, is patently ridiculous. The thing is a Yagi fest and towers over the already tall AFV carrying it. 
 
(Cut to)
 
Would you believe the previously missing SPR-3 just turned up?  Radius of protection is listed as 400 meters vs artillery and 280 meters vs mortars. Judging from the graphics, which also depict capability vs air delivered munitions, the Russians have been able to dramatically minimize (as in tiny now) jammer and antenna size.  There is a pic showing the difference between what happens when you don't jam and when you do. As for DPICM, SFW and the like, don't they all rely on VT fuzing to know when to open?
 
I'd say the prox poppers aren't really a matter of concern at platoon-company level, but really do matter at battalion and up. Absolutely at regiment, and I guarantee you we'll have people playing at that level, especially given the operational layer someone will absolutely figure out a way to make. Higher has the jamming assets and parcels them out according to higher's plans, just as this is done with artillery and combat aviation. You'd find them protecting CPs, bridges, dams, radar sites and the like. Nor is there any fundamental reason they couldn't be included without having to invoke the current triple tier ECM options. Such ECM doesn't affect anything within the purview of the current modeling, after all. 
 
I don't pretend to have all the answers here. Indeed, I've been doing some serious catching up. But I do believe I've identified something which bears looking at for a game which has some degree of ECM depicted within it. As I've shown, both the US and the Russians have and have used such weapons in combat. If the Syrians have the SPR-1, then it seems reasonable to expect the Ukraine Army to have at least that level of capability, but likely, much better, say, SPR-2 minimum. From what I see here, it's clear Ukraine has robust ECM capabilities, at least in terms of what it can manufacture. Presently, though, Ukraine is sucking wind on the COMJAM front, thanks to very sophisticated Russian supplied EW gear and Russian soldiers to operate it.
 
Research continues.
 
Regards,
 
John Kettler

panzersaurkrautwerfer,
 
I really do miss my brain. I neglected to mention when I visited NTC. 1980. I believe MRE's were pretty new then. For sure, my brother thought they were better than K rations. Was was also the occasion of my previously described romp in the Threat Garden. After looking inside an MTLB and being told it was relatively spacious, I felt bad for the PBI who had to run around in a BMP. 
 
Either your memory's great, or it's your Google fu, but Walter McIlhenny was indeed a Navy Cross winner. So sayeth his Wiki.
 
For extraordinary heroism and courage as Executive Officer of Company B, 1st Battalion, 5th Marines, 1st Marine Division, during a frontal assault upon a strongly fortified enemy Japanese position along the coast of Guadalcanal, Solomon Islands, August 27, 1942. After organizing a volunteer party to advance and evacuate the wounded from the hazardous position well forward of the company, First Lieutenant Mcllhenny, armed only with a rifle, and while under heavy enemy mortar and machine gun fire, covered the advance and withdrawal of the rescue party, gallantly drawing enemy fire and silencing a Japanese machine gun nest. Although ill at the time and suffering shock from concussion of an enemy mortar shell, he returned to a vantage point close to enemy lines and, in the face of fierce sniper fire, acted as an observer, relaying accurate information necessary for fire control until ordered by his superior officer to leave his post. His great personal valor, above and beyond the call of duty, not only made possible the rescue of nine wounded men but also contributed to the success of Marine mortar fire.
 
He also won the Silver Star.
 
For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity in action while in command of Company B, 1st Battalion, 5th Marines, 1st Marine Division, in combat against enemy Japanese forces on Guadalcanal, Solomon Islands, on November 2, 1942. After a previous attempt to secure information had failed, Captain McIlhenny led a patrol of approximately twenty men to reconnoiter the enemy's right flank and, moving through dense jungle, cleared the zone of hostile snipers and finally reached his objective. Completing his mission, he started to lead his patrol back to their own lines when they were spotted by the enemy who immediately opened fire, pinning them down. When almost all of his men were wounded, including two runners who had been dispatched to the battalion, Captain McIlhenny, despite his own injury, determined to carry the message himself and finally succeeded in reaching our lines. His great courage and unswerving devotion to duty enabled his company to attack the enemy's flank and capture their position. His superb leadership and indomitable fighting spirit were in keeping with the highest traditions of the United States Naval Service.
 
With that sort of life experience under his belt, can you imagine the joys of trying to make excuses to him?!
 
I appreciate the rundown on MREs, which I'm told have gotten better since I first had one. I wouldn't know, since I really didn't enjoy the experience, other than having it with my brother/MRE cuisine guide. I wonder why they don't put beef jerky in MREs? Lightweight, nutritious and, as long as it stays dry, immune to pretty much everything short of a direct hit from a nuke.
 
Regards,
 
John Kettler

Apocal,
 
The English language must be terribly confusing to people trying to learn it. Are we talking guards made of mud, something like China's famous clay warriors, or are they guarding mud. If the latter, why guard at all, given effectively unlimited supplies? And that's over an above the now not so obvious, if running across the term without knowing tanks or having an image to work from, guarding against mud? Weighty questions, to be sure. Now, if you want to talk mudbugs, I'm there! Shall need beer, though.
 
Dozza,
 
This is turning into quite an education for me. During my Hughes days one of my first assignments was to figure out how the Russians could render WASP, a brilliant swarm antitank missile which used active MMW guidance, useless. One of the things we came up with was using track guards to hide the telltale track reflections, especially when moving. Back then, the Russian tank force, as we saw it, was T-62s and T-55s, neither of which had skirts.  The T-64, which did, was never seen in public back then, was never paraded. The US learned of the T-64 in the late 1970s, and there wasn't even a CIA report on the T-64B until October of 1984. In fact, we had no sighting of the T-64B until 1980. In my entire career in military aerospace I never saw a single CIA document. They had lots of control markings which kept them out of defense contractor hands. What I saw came out of DIA or Army Intelligence.
 
This hiding the tracks concept may (note conditional) explain the embedded metal fibers in the T90 series track skirts and, presumably, the mud guards. The Russians were the world leader in MMW systems, and the US was trying desperately to catch up. The T-72 , which started with gill armor, was officially accepted as a State approved weapon in 1973. Interestingly, the Wiki has a link to BFC's T-72: Balkans on Fire. I don't know, having never seen anything on the matter at all in terms of more than cursory info, when the Russians switched from straight rubber (what we thought when we saw them), to the current material. But then, the US didn't have a single T-72 to examine until after the SU collapsed in 1989.
 
Regards,
 
John Kettler 

I see JK is back with his Kettlerian woo and this time claiming extraterrestrial sources for his extraordinary claims.



http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Kettlerian