Le Tondu

Oh Golly! Could it be true? Will "The Last Stalingrad Pack" really be released tomorrow??? At what time will it be available? One minute after midnight or some time in the morninbg?

Napoleonics, ACW, Romans, etc.... Why not all of them? Why not license the engine for a Napoleonic (etc....) game to those that have the time? I cannot see any reason for BTS to not want to make money.

Both CMBO and CMBB have a plethora of scenarios and operations. You can also download many of each kind. As time goes by, the more there will be for CMBB. While there isn't a "campaign" per say for each product, there really doesn't need to be any. Just a single battle can be more than enough I say. Each single battle and each linked battle within an operation can be played against the computer or another person by way of a hotseat, PBEM, or internet play with TCP/IP. Enjoy!

Fair play is something that I am always after as I game against friends. (I avoid ladder competitions like the plague.) In my opinion, it isn't very challenging for me when I have an overwhelming edge --equipment or numerical wise. For fair play, your efforts must begin before the game is ever started. Chat with your opponent over the phone (if you can) and work towards having a fair game. Maybe you should use some sort of agreed upon limits in terms of how large your tank's guns are. Fionn Kelley's set of rules can be a BIG help. For an all tank QB, I have found that June 1944 is a pretty good place with captured Panther As vs. German Panther As. Three German platoons of 5 tanks against five platoons of 3 tanks on a 5000 point (rural or farmland) battlefield with light trees and modest hills should do it nicely. Oh yeah, turn off the victory flags and just go after each other. Tests show that Panther As are really even against captured Panther As and you should have a real competitive game with them. I don't recommend using captured Soviet tanks in the hands of the Germans as the Germans are given too great an advantage against the same Soviets tanks. Ask your opponent for ideas and realize that you'll make mistakes until you find that "sweet spot." Experiment with rarity on and off. Another neat thing to try is to have even sides agreed upon like: A platoon of (evenly matched) tanks, a platoon of (evenly matched) recon vehicles, a platoon of (evenly matched) infantry, one 81mm FO (radio if possible), and a truck. Once placed, the truck cannot be moved by the owning player. The flags are also turned off here and the idea is to find and destroy your opponent's truck before he destroys yours. The FO cannot be used until the truck has been sighted. The honor system is a must for this kind of game and it can get pretty exciting when you play it. Maybe exact numbers of similar tanks isn't even play for you as you might have more experience than your friend. You gotta "feel" what is best for your situation. Just remember that your imagination is your only limit. [ November 16, 2002, 06:06 PM: Message edited by: Le Tondu ]

Same here.

I don't know about the cost thing, but with the 400 tests that I did when Panther A's faced another (captured) Panther A, the results were incredibly even. Out of 400 Panther's that the Germans fielded in June 1944, they lost 214. Out of 400 captured Panther's that the Russians fielded, they lost 200. So far, that is the most even results yet. If you want a totally even match, I say use them in a QB. Three platoons of 5 for the Germans and five platoons of 3 for the Russians on a small 5000 point map with light trees and modest hills makes for a real nice battle. Your tactics and NOT your equipment will be what wins it for you.

I have to agree with Greenman here. These monster scenarios are hard to handle, IMO. Not because of any hardware issue. It's just too hard sometimes to watch and handle all that is going on in them. It is too easy to miss something important like when you play one of them clickfest RTS games.

Here is another vote in favor of a sticky camera angles. Yes, let's do it now.

---June 1943, Pz IIIJ captured and not captured have discrepancies too on the Unit Information windows. My feeling that they are typos and not representative of what is under the hood. (At least I hope not.)

More information June 1944, using Panther VA (early war) tanks. Only AP ammo is used. Besides captured Panthers have thinner armor (for some reason), the penetration values for the captured Panther ammo is not as good as the German's. STILL.... ....things turned out better. Out of 400 German Panther VAs (early war), 214 were destroyed. Out of 400 Soviet captured Panther VAs (early war), 200 were destroyed. Tests were done at 50, 250, 500, & 1000 meters. I guess we'll have to pick June 1944 for gaming. Too bad that we'll have to pick those darn HUGE maps just to get enough tanks. We'll have to make them samll.

I'm that other guy and I just did a test using captured Panther VA early war tanks and the captured tanks also have different armor thicknesses. Specificaly, it's the upper and lower hull thicknesses for June 1944. German Panther VA (early war) Upper Hull: 83/55 Degrees Lower Hull: 63/55 degrees Captured German Panther VA (early war) Upper Hull: 80/55 Degrees Lower Hull: 60/55 degrees Even the penetration values for the ammo are different. Somefink aint right.

To all, Thanks for your thoughts so far. I really appreciate it. Optics weren't even metioned when you look at the Detailed Unit Information window for the captured T-34. The only difference is that the Germans give the coaxial MG more ammo than the Soviets. Other than that there is no difference! Optics??? At 350 meters on a total flat surface at midday with no wind, dry ground conditions, & no obstructions? How does optics help a crew to almost always fire first at such a short range as 50 meters? I just did another test for the range of 50 meters and the results are even more impressive. The Soviets lost 89 out of 100 tanks while the Germans with their captured T-34s lost only 20. The Germans still were able to fire first. Optics shouldn't even come into play at 50 meters. 2. Crew quality? IMO, any crew in a captured tank will not be anywhere as good as a crew in a tank that is familiar with it when all else is made equal. Does anyone think that Germany would but their best tanks crews in a captured tank in 1941? Paint job and markings or not, it still would have the silouhette of an enemy tank and when you consider any poor visibility conditions, it is a terribly risky job indeed. How good a quality would you get from Regulars for a job like this?? I have made 400 tests now and the Soviets lost 327 out of 400 tanks whille the Germans lost only 86 out of 400. The disparity is striking. My work is lacking, I admit. I will now test later situations with say captured Panthers later in the war. Optics will be the same and heck, the Soviets ought to have better quality crews for them. Stay tuned......

My friend and I have been wargaming for so long that we know each other's tendencies and tricks so much that we strive in QBs to get as equal a force as possible so we can be sure it was our pure tactical genius that helped us win. We don't just want to win because we had better equipment or greater numbers. I've been wargaming for 28+ years and he is an active duty officer and a tanker. SO, my work is always cut out for me when we go against each other with CMBB. Lots of times we like all armored forces and we recently had this great idea of having the same tanks face each other. One side will have captured tanks that face the same type on the other side. Great idea huh? Well, we had the same quality of crews and numbers, but we've run into a snag. My German captured T-34 Model 1941s hand my opponent his butt every time. He has even had the same results when he played the axis against the AI. My buddy said that the game favored the Germans and I said it was the top secret armored paint that the Germans used. I felt pretty good and I didn't take his complaints too seriously until I..... ......I did some tests. I had a ten tank vs. ten tank showdown. Inside ten different alleys lined with pine trees (that didn't allow one tank to see into the next alley) was one German captured T-34 Model 1941 against a Soviet T-34 Model 1941. Yeah, it was nasty. Each test rarely lasted more than one turn at the shorter ranges. Each range (350 meters, 500 meters, & 1000 meters) had ten tests for a total of 30 tests (each one with ten tanks vs. ten tanks) being made. Essentially the test had 100 tanks of the same type, crew quality, AND ammo. (I even went and edited each tank so they had only AP ammo for the T-34 Model 1941.) The results surprised and humbled me. I wasn't as good as I might have believed. 350 meters: Out of 100 T-34s that the Soviets were able to field, 84 were destroyed. Out of 100 captured T-34's that the Germans fielded, only 17 were destroyed. 500 meters: Out of 100 T-34s that the Soviets were able to field, 80 were destroyed. Out of 100 German captured T-34s, only 22 were destroyed. 1000 meters: Out of 100 Soviet T-34s, 74 were destroyed. Out of 100 German captured T-34s, only 27 were destroyed. Overall: Out of 300 T-34s for each side, the Soviets lost 238 T-34s and the Germans lost only 66 captured T-34s. On top of all of this, for each tank, the Germans were able to get the first shot off almost every time! (Both sides were Regulars without any bonuses.) Question: Shouldn't the numbers be reversed? I mean when you consider familiarity with the equipment and a maintenance system already in place for the T-34, the Soviets should have done MUCH better, IMHO. I have to agree with my friend. Something doesn't seem to be right. Are there national penalties given to the Soviets? I can't even think of why there would be any. Same tanks, same crew quality, same ammo, same everything ought to give something more like a 50-50 result. Not an 80-20 result. Somefink ought to get fixed. Any ideas guys? What am I missing here? I don't want to win a CMBB battle because of some unfair advantage. Now, real life is different. For sure, I want my friend to win hands down with LOTS of unfair advantages should he have to go into harms way, but in wargaming I want to win because of me and only me. (My decisions and only my decisions on the CM battlefield.) Winning any other way, in my opinion is delusion --and meaningless. Lastly, does anyone have any tips to help me achieve this with CMBB? Are there any suggestions for achieving parity? Thanks for your consideration.

Ooops Double post. [ November 07, 2002, 12:57 PM: Message edited by: Le Tondu ]

No problem. This is easily taken care of by reviewing the paths plotted for your units each and every turn. Be vigilent. If something crazy was plotted, change it. It's not hard to do. I have found that these crazy plots don't happen all that often and really aren't a problem whenever they do pop up. Play it MasterGoodale. You'll be glad that you did. Now a more serious problem that I've found with CMBB is that it won't go to the store and get me some beer. Sheesh! You think that after all that money that I spent on CMBB, it would go and get some freakin beer. AND what gets me is that these guys are on freakin vacation right now with such a glaring problem right in the face. It makes one wonder how customer friendly BTS really is. What's more important to them? Our beer or spending our money? They really should fix or somefink. [ November 07, 2002, 12:57 PM: Message edited by: Le Tondu ]

This idea of James' is great. It's not for everyone because it takes an ability to detach oneself from what you just did on the other side. Getting "deep" into the turn that you just played and ignoring what went on before. I can certainly that some folks here might have a real problem doing that. James is to be applauded for this idea. NOT ridiculed! He presented the idea in an entertaining way with due enthusiasm. How we play CM shouldn't be a more severe issue than if it is played. Good going James. Thanks for being brave. I'll continue to give it a go.

As the OP said they're on the mod database site. This is the link: http://cm.cozog.com/</font>

Did someone say Clan Chowder? I like the white kind better than the red kind.

I think that it is really nice. Good job. It seems that splash screens are either showing an all axis theme or an all Russian theme. Is it possible to have one where it shows both sides equally? Thanks.

Just don't post them at Tom's. For the love of all that's good don't post them there!</font>

"No patch this month." Hmmm, that was said in October and tomorrow is when November begins. Hmmmm.......

Well, I was able to get 4 mods downloaded before it started doing the same old thing. "Action cancelled" was the message.

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The site may look really great and Tom may be a really terrific guy, but after trying to download those mods for several weeks and still not being able to download them is a sure-fire recipe for unhappy campers. I don't understand why they are offered if they can't be downloaded 75% of the time in the site's current incarnation? Is this a case of a site just trying to do more than it really can do? At one time a 56K modem was it. Then it was ISDN. Then it was DSL or a satellite connection to your favorite ISP. (Maybe there is something even faster nowadays?) Let's face it. We are all expecting a certain standard with the internet because we've been groomed for it and a 25% chance to download a file is way, way below that standard. (I'm not trying to be mean by saying this.) Lastly, I want to say that I am very grateful for the few mods that I have been able to download from Tom's site. They certainly have made my CMBB look nicer and he sure has some great mods there to download. Please go here to get them: http://www.militarygameronline.com/TCMHQ/International.html I sincerely wish that you will have better luck than I.

Eden Smallwood has a point. Here is something else to consider. Personally, I have tried to hide a panzerschreck team after it has destroyed a close-by russian tank only to find out that the knocked out tank triggers it's cover arc and won't allow it to hide anymore. Try it yourself. (The flag was over the crest of a hill for the russians to go over. A perfect place for an ambush, but once it happened, I couldn't get it to happen again --even when the russians came over the crest of the hill piecemeal.) I hate it when it does that. Even still, I still love CMBB. I bet it'll get fixed.