Steiner14

Why didn't you plan to take P509 first? On the pic it seems to offer selective protection from almost any direction and seems to be a good central base for supportive long range heavy weapon crossfire, no?

Where is the second tank?

Ofcourse one sentence provocations are well tolerated as long as they are against the Germans, but as soon as extremely stupid mainstream propaganda is discussed in a factual and well founded manner, the usual provocateurs appear and begin whining that the discussion went OT...

Volltreffer! I knew it, mr. propaganda expert, that you will not recognize the false Euro-propaganda happening TODAY... But if you at least would learn history, you would know that all monetary unions had failed. I also knew this from you before you even admitted it: Imagine the world how you want it, then it will become true! Like Trofim Lyssenko, Stalin's preferred biologist and the idol of the politically "correct" terrorists these days ignoring the differences of human races, stated: Human DNA are only useless artefacts! Then later in the 1970s, when Richard Lewontin resurrected the absurd egalitarist marxist dogma. Or like Robert Menasse, the left-extremist Austrian author stated with joy after his first visit in Brussel: "The EU is a crypto-marxist entity destroying the nation states. Great!" Ofcourse since then, he calls himself in true Orwellian speak a "Pro-European". Destroying the european nations they call "proeuropean"... You see, your sick Euro-experiment has a solid and rational ideology as basement. Therefore it's only a matter of time, until things, being not equal, will become equal! The great EUSSR-globalists, that cannot govern one single country well, will definately succeed in governing a whole continent. They think they have learned from the Soviet Union and will make things better this time. But they understand nothing, because they ignore the reality of human nature and the natural differences between nations and cultures. The southern countries would need a weaker currency, while the germanic countries would need a stronger currency. In the south the economy is destroyed by a too strong euro, while in the strong countries bubbles are forming (e.g. housing; in german cities the debt ratio in financing is already above 85%; probably not one of your thousand TV-stations has ever informed you about; but maybe the time on air is only too precious for such unimportant information with all the highly educational programs...). These Marxist madmans even believe, they could make the Spaniards equal with the Finns, because they can imagine it, and it would be only a matter of a few laws from these stupid bureaucrats until that will happen. Since they can make negroes to Germans/French/Italians by giving them a paper printed by the state, why shouldn't they be able to make Europeans more equal? You obviously are not an investor, aren't you? Economic realities do not follow the marxist visions. Invest accordingly! Or to put it differently: Treating things equal that are not equal, like the economic productivity of european nations, does not result in equality but in failure. The reason why all monetary unions have failed. Like the Euro and the EUSSR...

What i find sarcasm are people living with thousands of TV stations and do not know, in which countries propaganda for homosexuality was allowed at that time and where people propagating homosexuality were not put in jail. Do not confuse the border of the dinner plate with the horizon...

But you can't measure humidity with a ruler. I don't find Doubler's book useful in judging fighting power and combat effectiveness. Creveld does that like an engineer, a scientist. Doubler's book is a ideological book. Creveld's book is politically neutral and objective. It's scientific in it's content (although it is not hard to read, quite the contrary). What should also be noted: Creveld as a jew, who suffered losses in his family during the war, is definately not keen on gloryfying the Wehrmacht. I don't want to spoil details, because if you are interested in this topic, this book will be quite a unique and exciting reading experience. There are not many books that give us something for our whole life and can be read again and again and every time you learn and understand more. This is one of these very rare outstanding books about WWII.

You are mixing your political and historical judgements with military aspects. Your ideological views obviously deny you to observe things objectively. For the soldier in the field politics plays no role and for judging his fighting power it also plays no role. You don't even understand, that not always the best soldier wins a war. Again you are confusing things and are not talking about fighting power. A boxer that is beaten down by ten other boxers does not suck. The FACTS speak for itself: Six weeks for France. Four weeks for Poland. Balkan. Norway. Then take a look at a map of Russia. Even the Soviet-Union would have been finished, too without the US lend and lease deliveries, that alone was more than the whole german wartime production! Yes they obviously sucked. Then look at a globe. Look at the size of Germany and the size of the USSR, the USA, Canada, the UK and the occupied colonies! Look at the hard facts, the production figures. This all was thrown at the German soldier he had to face in the field. It was a MIRACLE what the german soldier achieved, that he could withstand that long such overwhelming numbers and an even greater miracle was, that the victory was several times in the reach. The german soldier sucked but YOU, YOU do not suck, correct? You can be glad that stupidity does not hurt otherwise you would be running around crying all day. I can't see a difference between the propaganda the tens of thousands of western TV stations are spreading and what you and poesel71 are repeating here. A study written for the US army, after the desaster of the Vietnam war and a must read for everyone interested in the topic: Martin van Creveld: Fighting Power (available in German, too: Deutsche Kampfkraft)

JonS, do you have any idea, why boxers are judged in fights of one on one and not 2, 3 or 10 against 1? The losses of British and American units were around 50% higher than German units under comparable conditions. No matter if under attack and defense. But a look at production figures and resources also helps to get rid of your absurd, hollywoodlike propaganda views (poesel71, since you are a propaganda expert, have you noticed in the meanwhile, why the Euro is a misconception and will not survive?). Then a look at a map also helps to understand what the german soldier had to cope with and that it is unreached what he achieved. But following you "experts" I guess the reason why allied WWII field commanders always ranked the german soldier the best of all participating parties was simply a result of german propaganda and YOU are the well informed while I was the one who believes in propaganda... ps: did you know that 85% of NYC high school absolvents aren't capable of reading? I'm sure they will support your views...

Only two words: six weeks. Get over it. Learn to accept they were the best.

Stellungswechsel for PAKs was common tactics!

Show me. Sorry, but I don't believe you a word. I'm not a CM noob and have never been able to achieve similar results with ATGs in CM. I'm not talking about playing the stupid AI. ATGs in CM are undermodelled in many aspects. My picture should have been more understood as argument, how less dangerous they are in CM than in RL. A 88 firing at 1km+ meant a kill with the first shot and with almost 100% probability if the tank moved in radial direction to the gun. In CM when tanks fire back, they immediately have their HE impacts close enough to suppress ATGs. In reality they were already dead at their second shot before they could even get the range somehow correct when they were facing a 88. The ROF of the 88 is too low, the turning rates of ATGs are generally too low. They aren't dug in, and stand hugely exposed, even camouflaged ones are not practically invisible until they open fire. The movement of up to the 50mm calibres are way too slow and they can't be pushed back quickly without turning around half a minute and then walking around.

With the current ATG models, I can't imagine that in CM even the luckiest player can achieve that many kills with one gun: Would make an interesting test if the hit probability of the 88 is better than other guns.

+1. IMO the importance of this fact can't be overstated. Giving players a tool for every problem they face, is the best way to ruin a game.

JasonC, very good description.

Runyan, don't you pay attention to the spotting rounds?

JK, I understand absolutely nothing.

Domestic assault? What happened?

Don't feed the trolls!

:cool: Could be useful: How to attack a village with infantry and tanks (German): http://youtu.be/ytO_TJ03OjA

It's hard to believe, that people can not follow Vanir's simple and logically presented arguments. I am feeling like in a absurd theatre.

See p.95: Intellectual HQs can tell morale boosting stories to their subordinates.

The advantage a stationary tank has: if the distances of certain objects were measured and IF lighting conditions allow to judge, if the appearing target is closer or further away than a reference object (behind or in front). Against a low standing sun this can be quite difficult for a stationary observer, while a mobile observer usually can judge distances and relative positions of objects BETTER than a stationary observer. It should also be mentioned that a high velocity, flat trajectory gun does allow less exact range estimations while still hitting the target compared to lower velocity guns with shorter barrels. Therefore it would be ridiculous to give tanks like a Tiger with his L56 or the Panther with his L70 gun a penalty, if they had stopped quickly, as if they would need to know the range to the last 100 meters.

Tanks are there to move and not to sit like ducks and wait during combat. A tank that is not moving after an engagement, is probably not getting much older... And it's usually a waste of resources to use tanks like ATGs. But what else can be expected from someone, calling Hstuf. Wittmanns heroic fight stupid...

Damn, why are they sitting like ducks and not moving on?! They have shot already, sir and need to relax now.

Do VLs put into account the composition of the force and its strenght occupying it, or are VLs simply judged by checking if a friendly unit is within the borders?