Panzer76

At least CMx1 HAD an AI.

I think this is a rather misguided statement. It like saying no software ever created is ever fully finished, because there are always something you could fix or make better. To then compare CMBO or CMx1 state of finished vs CMSF state of finished is absurd, IMHO. What mattered is that CMx1 played great out of the box, and kept on getting better. CMSF played like crap out of the box, and still is crap (in my opinion). Frankly, I dont think any number of patches will save this turkey. I heard how every patch would somehow "save" CMSF, and none of them did. I have no reason to expect 1.05 will be any different. Sure, after the patch people will get a bit interested again, checking out whats different and play a few games. But soon enough they'll see that in its core, its the same old game with all its flaws. Atleast, from my POV. Seems Ive turned from fanatical BTS fanboi to bitter and grumpy. Oh well. PS! I would love to be proven wrong.

I would have to disagree, strongly. CMBO played just fine right out of the box, and just kept on getting better. There were no game breakers. CMSF OTOH... paints all its flaws out to us, everytime we play it in all its 1:1 glory. Really, I think its kinda sad that not only the CM series, but the image I had of this company, has been crushed.

Four year too late.

I think your missing the point. When I (and many other here it seems) first started playing CMx1, I was blown away by the game. It was just plain brilliant. After playing it for 5 yrs, it kinda gets old, but I have never played any game for that amount of time. THTAS what I remember from CMx1, the brilliance of th egame. Then CMSF come along, and it "bleh". The reviews are most ofte mediocre at best for a very good reason. Simply, CMSF cant hold a candle to CMx1 in terms of how much the different games impressed me when they were released. Who cares how CMSF looks when we cant be bothered to play it due to its design flaws and bugs. If CMSF represent the future, its a bleak future indeed.

didnt we say that about 1.04 too

Prepare to be dissapointed...

Adam1, it seems you can safely ignore CM SF and hope for better times when we get the WW2 game. I think its better for your blood pressure

Look, I dont mind it having RT as an option, I prefer it when I soslo play. I dont mind the location, I dont mind the setting, I dont mind any of these issues as they have no significant impact on the *core* issues. And, most people on this forum does not mind that either. What they *do* mind, is the core issues around this. I wont repeat them all, since you no doubt have read all about them. What Im saying is that some people try to paint the discussions on this forum as a thing between the extremist no-RT, hard core grog guys and the sensible, "just a few bugs" guys. And it is not. Lets not pretend it to be like that either. And dont insult the intelligence of the people who post here to act that way.

If I argued his points on the deficiencies of CMSF then you'd be right (arguing the finer points of the game without having played it would admittedly be pretty stupid) But I'm not arguing those. I'm sure all of his points of critique (LOS, AI, whatever) are spot on, and I agree that they should be fixed. Q.E.D. you're wrong.</font>

I agree with Zemke. BTW luderbamsen, I think it may help your understanding if you had actually *played* the game you are discussing.

Modding tools?

TOW? Whats that an example of? Surly not success?

Does that have anything to do with the quality of their games?

Isnt that just a myth? The PC market has never been stronger. And, most people that post here have been avid BTS fans for many years, and supported them plenty with word of mouth and money. I refuse to support a product that is rightout flawed and poor (IMHO). I dont owe BTS nothing, Ive paid for all their products and got others to buy them. Ofcos, they dont owe me nothing either.

RE graphics: When I first loaded up SF and saw a big IED go off, I was like "Oh man, that was cool!" 1 week later, I hardly touched the game. When I first played CMBO I thought the gfx was rather clunky. 5 years later I still played CMx1.

I agree that CM SF as it stands now falls between the markets. It does not appeal to the RTS crowd, the game is not polished enough, the UI is akward and the gameplay too complicated. It does not appeal to the CMx1 crowd as much because its too limited in scope, has very little flexibility and WEGO is a after thought. It does not appeal to hardcore wargamers as the bugs are too apparent. I think it appeals to those who are very interested in modern warfare, in Iraq, Syria USA conflict because of the relevance it has today and since there are no other game out like it. Now, just because there are no other games out there like it does not automatically mean its a great game, as I feel CM SF has shown.

What you describe sounds more like SOPs. God knows, the AI in SF need all the help it can get.

At what time was that a big deal for *this* crowd?

Bankcrupt? Nah. Whatever my feelings for CM SF, it has (or so said Steve) outsold CMx1 the first few weeks after it was released. Now, BTS certainly did not have the profit marign pr copy they had before (selling directly), nor do I think they will have a strong after market, but still. Bankcrupt? Nah.

pad152, Amen.

Well, CMx1 just had so much more possibilities, and tactcial depth than CM SF. My fav game during my 20 years of gaming and I recommeneded it to everyone and their dog. CM SF.. well, I find it extremly limited, rather unrealistic behaviour (since its displayed in all its 1:1 "glory") and repetetive. Obviously, there are people who love CM SF, but Im not of them. And, as you mention, since this forum has turned into a ghost town, it may seem that most are unhappy with it. I guess everything will change when the Marines Module is here *cough* *cough*.

I dont think that would help much really.

Well, from where I stand, CM SF seems to be a fiasco. If not short term, then long term. They have lost a lot of supporters and faith with this release. But since BTS keeps talking about how great CM SF is compard to CMx1, I guess they must be happy.

Ive bought all their games, what more can I do? Odds are good CM SF is the last one I will buy from them though.