c3k

One word: Ewoks. (Now rinse out the bile...)

LOL! And if GaJ had fired his heretofore unspotted ATG, and the round had ricocheted, or missed, he would've been lambasted for lack of fire discipline. Lose-lose, no matter what for GaJ and his ATG. The only chance for GaJ would've been to open fire, at a tough angle, and get an unlikely kill. (JgPzIV front armor, reclined on an incline is INSANE!! ) He had to've hit the small portion of lower armor just barely visible. Not likely... Given the position of the ATG, and the inability to re-crew it, he did the best he could. The question for GaJ is, now that you've lost that ATG, will you take any action to beef up that side? Or, do you think you should keep the defensive plan in place? What do you think Bil will do next? How will you counter it? When are you planning a dashing counterattack to capture Bil? Will you parade him in chains after capture? MOAR!

^^^ I'm not sure if they existed in the time frame of WWII, but you can drive through the German countryside and see large forests consisting of neat rows of pine trees. Call it a farm (are they being grown specifically for their wood?), or a "greening" initiative, regardless, the LOS along the horizontal, vertical, and diagonal rows is almost totally uninhibited. (Lot's of trails for biking and walking utilize these tree stands/woods.) Again, I don't know (and doubt) if they existed in WWII. Firebreaks certainly did. Additionally, the Continental powers specifically kept woods in strategic locations to aid in defense. Note the ability to defend in woods that they gained in WWI. Undergrowth and trees were a large help in defense, even after obliteration by artillery. But enough of that: MOAR attack!

Hister: Yes, we both are. Ken

Nicely done. I'll verify (just to be sure), and then you can consider BFC to've been notified. Off to eat bon-bons whilst baneman continues his yoeman's work. Thanks, Ken

Sounds like Doug Williams is channeling my thoughts! I agree that GaJ's forward obstacles may've helped "sell" the Tits to Bil. In that case, not a loss.

Yeah, it'd seem like an ATG setup in defense should have some sort of better camo bonus. I don't know what the differences are right now. I'd guess that a well camouflaged ATG wouldn't be spotted until after it had opened fire, and then only after a few rounds, depending on the terrain. (Shells can be tracked by their wake in tall grass, for example.)

Fed: have you been using the FACE target order first, then been giving the SMOKE command? I have never had a failure to place smoke in the direction I've ordered if I've done just that. Remember, the guy with the smoke grenade may be the guy covering the unit's 6 o'clock. If you just say "Smoke, out!" then whoever has it will just chuck it. If you order, "Smoke the road in front of us!" then that's what'll happen. The difference is whether or not you give a FACE command first. (Also, without a FACE command, the unit is free to shift as it sees fit. So your SMOKE may show a purple line at 2 o'clock when you order it, but the guy with the smoke may turn to 6 o'clock in the next few seconds.) Let us know how it works with the preparatory command FACE given first. Ken

What's of more interest to me was how inaccurate the bazooka fire was. Look at the dispersion in the picture. (Thanks John Kettler for posting the link.) I would assume near perfect firing conditions for this test, yet, there are many near misses (edge of plate, etc.). Also, we don't know how many rounds were fired to get this number of hits. The robustness of the interleaved road-wheel design is interesting.

GaJ's 76mm ATG setup in the open has been spotted and fired upon. I've found out the hard way that ATG's are impossible to hid when setup like that. Using it to FACE the enemy's approach invites disaster. (Again, I point to the shattered hulks of dozens of ATG's that I've misused to show whereof I speak.) ATG's need to be hidden, and set -as much as possible- to take an advance in the flank. An ATG on a hill does not protect the hill. An ATG off to the side of the hill, aiming at it, protects the hill. We can argue about the setup concealment bonus, or lack thereof, for ATG's, but that won't change how it works right now. I'm glad GaJ is going to open up with that mortar. He needs to get some ordnance on target! Bil needs infantry to control; tanks are to destroy. He's got the firepower, but he is limited in manpower. GaJ, of course, doesn't know that, but every team he kills gains him an edge in the endgame. Bil's doing a very nice job of isolating his immediate objective, laying down suppression on likely points of resistance, and keeping some overwatch for targets of opportunity. The Hardenberger machine grinds ever forward! (sig material available for a nominal licensing fee. ) Ken

^^^ ...and padding.

Interesting how Bil assumed that the ridge road would be mined. Perhaps that is almost as good as if it had been mined? I mean, what ommander wouldn't mine or block a road going directly into the heart of his position? (Sorry, GaJ!) Bil is conducting a textbook attack, IMO. He's got support, both direct and indirect. His center is advancing, and his flanks are covered. Recce is moving into the blind spots. He has 8 AFVs to GaJ's 4 SPATG's. Those 15 cm shells can do a world o'hurt. GaJ should be cautious about having anything more than a single team in any action spot... Ken

Agreed: they should not be doing it. Savegame or screenies?

Link to a screenshot. Certain trees, very close, should be "transparent" to outbound fire.

snake_eye: It sounds like you're dangerously close to crossing a line. Giving advice is not something that responsible members have done. Ask questions, get information and behind-the-scenes thoughts: do not give advice, alternatives, ideas, or suggestions. Keep it in the Peanut Gallery if you want a give and take. Otherwise, rein it in just a tad. No one wants you to inadvertantly skew the battle. Thanks, Ken

Oh, you've got LOTS of company here. We're just silently awaiting the clash of forces!

Aye, snipers with blood running down their ears from their burst eardrums, but still they crawl forward to get their shot. That's what I'm hear for! (Oh, a bad pun is better than no pun at all. )

This thread contains SO much sig material, I'm not sure where to start. I'll see your aleph 1 and raise you to aleph 2.

^^^ That.

Work!?!? You have a BATTLE to fight! You.. you.. gahhh. must post turn... Attack!

^^^ Exactly.

yeah, I'm not too concerned with absolute vulnerability, or timing, right now. I'm more going for a relative check of the vulnerability of a gunshield protected gunner vice a gunner without a shield.

bisu brought up, and baneman tested for, vulnerability of Hanomag gunners. Therefore, any outbound fire (from the halftrack) would skew any results. I may try an area target command and see if that changes anything. (And do the same tests w/the US halftracks.) Whereas I have the savegames, I haven't done the maths. The 5 man teams started with 481 rounds of M2 .30 cal. ball. The variation seemed to be bounded by about 450 to 420 rounds left. Ken

Good question. I gave the gunners a 100m covered arc. The GI's were 300m away. The halftrack gunners stood tall, but never fired a shot (as planned). So there was no incoming fire against the GI's which would skew the results.

Guys, I love the AT talk. Seriously. But...let's talk about GaJ and Bil: right now neither of them have a single AT mine. Nor do they have Churchills, StuGIII's, Tigers, or StuH 42's. Otherwise we're doing a great job of keeping this thread on track! Onto the subject: I see GaJ talking about moving his Quad .50 forward. Whereas I love a good attack, or aggressive defense, this seems foolhardy. I don't have access to the map, but it looks like the area GaJ may move his Quad .50 through is covered by Bil's tanks/armor. How long do .50 cal. rounds cook off? (I reserve the right to retract this if GaJ's proposed movement is under cover. ) Since Bil is taking the buildings just short of the tits, can GaJ put any indirect fire on them? Ken