c3k

Porsche turret Tiger II roof penetration from ricochet odds in game would be interesting to see. Anyone? cough, Vanir, cough?

Statistical analysis from one test shot would be...presumptuous. Now, I'm not saying it DIDN'T happen. It just didn't happen a lot. That's vague, isn't it? The top picture, with the circled hits from the test, do not show the penetration. The lower picture has the turret slewed further to the right. It -seems- to be a different vehicle than the other picture. FWIW, the hit which the mantlet deflected has gone through the junction of the roof and side armor. I'd say that's harder to penetrate than just the roof. FWIW. However, that picture does not state the range and weapon used. The hole is on the order of 3". That encompasses almost every allied tank and AA weapon which could penetrate the Panther. If the shell has a high length to diameter ratio, it would be very prone to shattering rather than ricocheting. Shell type, weapon, range, all matter. (As we all know.) A picture or two (well found!) does not give any kind of correlation. If I flip a coin once, I cannot say that it will always land on heads. (Simplistic example with many flaws. Go with it.) One penetration in 8 may have been from a test specifically staged to maximize the shot trap weakness. Shatter gap, for example, is a non-intuitive characteristic of certain shells at certain speeds. Similarly, this may be less straightforward than assumed at first blush. I would not try to extrapolate any trends from one data point. (No Jentz at hand atm, but I thought the 40mm mod to the roof thickness also corresponded with a turret roof increase, as well. A response to greater weight of allied artillery. Just from memory, so I may well be wrong on that.) (And the mirthful part of me notices that the picture with the deflection and penetration clearly shows zimmerit present. Coincidence? I think not... ) Ken

Nice. (The pedant in me would ask to see the hole in the roof of the hull! ) I think there's a difference between a shot trap and the ricochet mechanics. A trap, in this case, guides the round in. A ricochet would be more...dynamic. The chin would, to me, stop the trap, not the ricochet. VaB, I know you've done a LOT of drudge work. How about replacing the Panther in your test with a version with the chin? That would be interesting. I'd expect the number of roof penetrations would drop to zero if the chin were effective and modeled accurately. (Ref your results with the 6 penetrations.) (Further, there was a reason why the Germans were working on the schmallturm (sp?): they wanted to shrink the mantlet even more.) Ken

LOL. Thanks JasonC for explaining "radius" to me. That's the last time I text on a bus. A shell will deform the mantlet. The metal will bend. The shell will be subject to enormous forces if it changes direction rapidly. I leave it to you to determine the acceleration to deflect a shell by 45 degrees (or more) within the length of the shell. If a shell comes in parallel to the hull roof, and just above the hull roof, then hits the mantlet, the dynamics are far different than if it comes in at the height of the barrel and hits the mantlet just below the center of the curve. Shot trap, indeed. That could be the hull roof penetrations with no ricochets. I would be leery of trusting intuition on these matters. There are a lot of anecdotes and very rare, if any, evidence. The mantlet chin: why is it just on the lower 1/4 of the mantlet? Why not the lower 1/2? Why did the Germans continue to demand zimmerit? Momentum is lost. Metal bends, heats, breaks, and rotates. This is an interesting subject, but there is no EVIDENCE. Rather than hull damage, perhaps the number of driver/radio operator casualties could be used as an indicator of mantlet deflections? Or not. This seems very similar to the claims of Typhoon rocket effectiveness. Ken

These are not light rays hitting a convex mirror.

Lol. Elastic vs. Inelastic physics. If a 3" shell hits 2 1/2" up from the hull top, what happens?

How much armor plate can that .50 penetrate when it is sideways? How much velocity does it lose during the ricochet? You see my point. FWIW would a closer hit by a 57mm at a 1m elevation increase the ricochet chances? (Change the geometry and velocity.)

And then, of the ones that hit square on to that restricted area, how many have the correct ballistics and physical properties to ricochet, let alone the residual energy and orientation to penetrate the roof armor?

GJK, As one who wasn't too eager to get into modern, CMSF (patched ) is great. If you haven't, you should SERIOUSLY consider getting the next two modules, British and Nato. The units bring a very different feel to the battle. Syrian's get some better equipment and the Europeans have a bit of fun, as well. If nothing else, you can get a USMC vs. German battle going. That's worth it, right there! I don't know what those modules cost, but if you and your son enjoy CMSF/USMC, consider it. Ken

If you've let CMBN and CMFI install to their default locations, you'll notice that CMFI has a very different install. It splits: part to Program Files (x86) and part to Documents. CMBN just goes into a folder, eh, somewhere else. So, the fact that Avast allows CMBN but blocks CMFI could just be due to how Avast is sensitized to those install locations. Good luck! I'm sure a tech support guru could help. Ken

Generational difference: I know what I want vs. I'll take what's offered. Despite all the attempts, the desktop is still very healthy. The laptop/notebook/tablet is merely offering a cheaper option to those who don't need/want the power of a desktop. Or the inherent flexibility and longevity of the desktop. Meanwhile, the .12 patches fix the floating MG34 and MG42 floaty bits bug. That's enough, isn't it? Ken

Did someone mention "flares"? Anyhow, the comment about CMx2 being akin to a stick shift and CMx1 being an automatic is spot on. Once you learn a stick, it's awesome. Until then, it's a chore. However, in heavy, bumper to bumper, rush hour traffic, a stick is something I'd rather not have to use. Some CMx2 games are daunting. At 8 p.m., tired from work, that first turn or three of a 2 hour, large assault battle, seems too much. (The stick shift at rush hour.) However, after the first few turns (especially the very first), the game "flows". It creates a rhythm, opportunities, and openings. Getting past that first hump is often the only obstacle. Then, the next night at 8 p.m. you can hardly wait to boot up the game and continue the fight. My .02. Ken

I'm not a tech support, but antivirus software seems to be a likely culprit.

Move this over to the Tech support forum. You'll get more hits there. Most would probably give a better answer if you included the model number and the screen resolution you use. As well, what else is in your Pavilion drawing power from that 300w psu? Ken

Re the mantlet "chin": could that have been an over engineered solution to a rarely encountered problem? (Like zimmerit?) I have some books on Panther repair work. I wonder if there are any stats on roof penetrations under the mantlet? It sure looks like the round mantlet could cause a ricochet, but did they? Most rounds impacting would be about 3" in diameter, not a reflecting line. Could that have jammed the round against the opposing surfaces? (Not literally...) Would a higher velocity round have a better ricochet chance? If the Panther were hull down, would that change the hit location? (Aiming at center of visible mass.)

A dead Hun can't talk, what? Wound 'em and put 'em in a PW cage. They'll talk. My guys were hit by medium HE and flak cannon. Or the odd 7.92mm round. I wonder if all my 9mm smg rounds are modeled to be less lethal than full power rifle rounds? That would be interesting...

I've just finished reading Bil's AAR. Wow. His abilities to recon, analyze, and coordinate the right combination is unbelievable. It is amazing to see. Even more, he makes it seem obvious...after he does it. I feel like a little kid who just wrestled his Dad to the ground...and then finds out how strong he REALLY is. But enough of that. We need to get Bil's RL sorted so I can attack him again! Re the purchase: my para purchase was to meet the points limit of the ME. Buying in bulk saves. Ken

This has been a great deal of fun to read from my perspective! I -thought- I was overmatched by Bil's play: now I -know- just how badly overmatched I was by his play!!! I shall learn from the master. Then, while he sleeps, I will attack. Bil: outstanding AAR. Thank you. Ken

MORE! Well, not really. Bil has asked for, and I agreed to, a ceasefire. A true gentleman, Bil pulled his men away from the errant objectives. Why did he ask for a ceasefire? He -claims- it's due to real life. Bah. I crushed his morale! I stated early on that this is not a battle of forces, but of wills! My enemy is not his minions, but it is he! In all seriousness, he played an outstanding game. Every move I took which I considered a gamble was not: he was already in position to counter it. The beta issues favored me: long range piats (even if they were so weak), and his inability to reload his flak tracks, both favored me. I had minor issues, long since corrected by BFC. If the game had continued much longer, my men would have been shredded. I needed a shield between my men and his armored firepower. The town gave me that, but could do so only for so long as my piat ammo held out. I was, however, firing them rather rapidly! On purpose, to slow him down. Given the forces and positions, it would more properly be awarded as a victory to Bil. The battle took quite a turn away from what I expected early on. Okay, my tank debacle was NOT a highlight. (High payoff, high risk. Ooops.) Afterwards, I adjusted to the circumstances and tried to leverage what I had. Thank you, to Bil, for quite the game. Thank you, the audience, for bearing with the delays and for not letting any spoilers spill. It's been fun, but I'm glad it's over. Oh: I'm traveling. My wife begged me to let her run the last turn. She wanted to claim victory as hers, since our Thanksgiving and Christmas will not be consumed by my writing this up anymore. A bloodthirsty lass, she. Now, I'm off to read Bil's AAR. Cheers. Ken out.

The TOWN Bil continues milling around. I continue dropping mortar shells and picking off what I can. More?

Windmilling Slightly left of the Windmill, my Piat guy and his Lucky Panther: Finally. I'm about to gain the ONE thing that really mattered: the windmill. A minor vignette to the right of the windmill: I'm advancing a Bren gunner as security just ahead of a crack sniper team. Sure enough, there's a German in there. That's why the Bren gunner went first. Ah. Nice. Next will be to clean out this vile nest! More...

The Gutter and the Woodsman's Lodge More...

THE TURN JAGGIE 241 Hunting The pictures speak... Foiled. Again. I will mount its horn after I slay it. It really would've been cool if the burning tanks had exploded at the right time. Ach. Other places... More...

Another abstraction: I am pretty powerless against a car. My UI shows no anti-car weapons. Yet, if you drive near me, and don't see me, I can attack and disable your car. Brick through the windshield; sugar in the gas tank , flame pit across the road, swinging tree-trunks on rope ala Star Wars Ewoks, etc. You get my point? As much as my above example has (almost) nothing to do with attacking a buttoned up armored vehicle, you do recall the Hungarian uprising when unarmed civilians used high power lines to short out tanks? (They, apparently, burned them by that technique. Live wires, hand held (wooden baton) pressed agains tanks. Possibly anecdotal.) Human ingenuity should not be discounted. Sure, good intentions are a poor weapon against 4" of armor, but it's a start. A chunk of wood CAN immobilize a tank. A crowbar CAN destroy a machinegun. A bottle of gasoline CAN destroy a tank. Etc. At some point, something needs to be abstracted. The determination of where to draw that line is subject to debate. You may disagree with where that line is, but it's important to recognize that it exists. Ken

Like a well-oiled asian courtesan, I will allow Bil to grapple with me, only to slip out of his grasp before he can realize his dishonorable intentions! I will kick him in the midriff, steal his wallet from the nightstand and escape into the rickshaw clogged streets! The end beckons...